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Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

shwin.co

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Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EEs I have known that carried around a card with: V = I * R I = V / R R = V / I because they couldn't remember it were all bad at EE and bad at math. If you can't remember the pieces making up a concept, how are you going to remember the concept? > It’s disproportionately important for passing tests (And getting hired at tech companies!) I don't remember anyone who couldn't pass tests but was really a great engin…

> I don't remember anyone who couldn't pass tests but was really a great engineer. But there are plenty of people who can pass tests and are terrible engineers. When people talk about memorization they talk about remembering the words without understanding the concepts, such a person is no better off than the person carrying around a text note with the concept written down. When you understand these concepts you will…

The science/engineering/math tests I took at Caltech were all open book, open note. They were not about regurgitating facts and formulae. But if you didn't already know them, you didn't have the time to open the book and learn about them.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EEs I have known that carried around a card with: V = I * R I = V / R R = V / I because they couldn't remember it were all bad at EE and bad at math. If you can't remember the pieces making up a concept, how are you going to remember the concept? > It’s disproportionately important for passing tests (And getting hired at tech companies!) I don't remember anyone who couldn't pass tests but was really a great engin…

> If you can't remember the pieces making up a concept, how are you going to remember the concept? This is not mere memorization. The GP's point that not everything that makes you remember this is simply "memorization", and certainly all of those things contribute differently to creativity. > I also have some written tests for certifying pilots. Yes, piloting is one of the tasks where you absolutely need lots of rand…

A lot of pilots have saved their lives by being creative when the checklist solution didn't work. They were successful being creative because they knew the airplane's systems inside and out.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#283

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

The EEs I have known that carried around a card with: V = I * R I = V / R R = V / I because they couldn't remember it were all bad at EE and bad at math. If you can't remember the pieces making up a concept, how are you going to remember the concept? > It’s disproportionately important for passing tests (And getting hired at tech companies!) I don't remember anyone who couldn't pass tests but was really a great engin…

My high school had majors and one of them was effectively EE; the 14/15 year olds in my major had those formulas down inside of 3 weeks... what EEs did you know that couldn't outperform teenagers?

...I mean, I didn't even go to that great of a college and no one would have made it past the second year of EE without memorizing 10x more formulas than that.

I'm just completely lost on how it's even possible to have an EE degree and needing a card. Signal processing classes required math 100x more difficult than that. I had to know quaternions by my second dsp class.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Tacit knowledge is hard to teach.

Right. And, I think, real expertise in any subject is choc full of tacit knowledge. Even - and especially - in areas where we have good symbolic representations. (Like music, math, programming and languages.)

The problem with English is I don't actually know the rules. Something just feels "off" sometimes when someone makes grammatical mistakes.

I doubt I will ever gain this feeling (for lack of a better word) with another language. I mean how could I? Everything sounds weird and "off" when you're a beginner, right? For example: el bano, el agua, la naranja, la sillas. You're constantly suppressing warning signs flashing in your head.

For example, I remember being forced to memorize the multiplication tables. I doubt we do that in schools anymore. I feel like all that time could have been better spent learning something else.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#285
post #174
post #116

The most striking comment was this: > Growing up with Indian parents in California, I was exposed to both. My mom would write daily Kumon sheets out by hand for me to do, and teach me from Indian textbooks from the same grade (which were much more advanced than the US equivalents). The result was me breezing through the US school system without much thought. Ukrainian refugees I know are finding the same things in th…

Why do you assume Ukrainian math is memorization based? They actually do a lot of problem solving, they are not doing rote memorization.

Indian math system is not memorisation based either.

Math anywhere in the world is all about how many patterns you know/seen. And inventing new math is all about changing one small thing about the stuff you already know and see if it remains logically consistent.

Knowing what to change largely depends on the stuff you already know. To that end even if you don't memorize facts, you still need to memorize patterns.

You have to memorize something. Nobody invents the Apple pie from scratch.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. And, I think, real expertise in any subject is choc full of tacit knowledge. Even - and especially - in areas where we have good symbolic representations. (Like music, math, programming and languages.)

The problem with English is I don't actually know the rules. Something just feels "off" sometimes when someone makes grammatical mistakes. I doubt I will ever gain this feeling (for lack of a better word) with another language. I mean how could I? Everything sounds weird and "off" when you're a beginner, right? For example: el bano, el agua, la naranja, la sillas. You're constantly suppressing warning signs flashing…

Schools still teach multiplication tables to this day. They remain useful in a myriad of everyday situations.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#287
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I would like to, I think getting to that understanding required at least 500 flashcards on general statistical and probability concepts, ranging from fundamentals to extreme value theory. Most of those are only barely relevant at face value, but still contribute to understanding. It's not that I set out to understand this specific thing but that I had studied statistics with flashcard support for a year an…

Completely makes sense, appreciate the thoughtful reply. Any tips for writing flashcards when studying a textbook?

I've long wanted to write about this but never been able to think of anything original to say, but your question forced me to face this with effort. Thanks!

When making flashcards I draw a lot from the softer type of theory-building they do in social sciences. I ask questions like

- What are the properties of this?

- What variants of this exist? I.e. how would I recognise this in the wild, or in other shapes?

- What subcomponents can this be deconstructed into?

- Into which bigger picture does this fit?

- What are the consequences of this? What are its antecedents?

- What is this a special case of? What would a generalisation of this look like?

- Which are other related things? What are their similarities and differences?

- In what context might I need to know this?

Whenever I encounter what seems like a significant thing I loosely ask some of these questions, and try to construct atomic, focused flashcards from the answers.

I say loosely because it would take forever to to through all questions for all flashcards I make, so there's some bit of intuition that attracts me to which I think are the most significant questions for any given thing.

-----

One trick to make flashcards more specific that I use (maybe even abuse) is putting part of the answer into the prompt. Instead of prompting "What is the property of subexponential distributions I found meaningful in this book?" I might prompt "What behaviour do subexponential distributions have around high barriers that others don't?" -- I'm giving away part of the answer by including "high barrier" in the prompt, but I'm okay with that.

If I'm concerned about that, I might create a second flashcard prompting something like "What can a subexponential distribution do in one step that a more well-behaved distribution needs many steps to do?" with the answer "clear a high barrier". That captures both sides of the property without making too general a prompt.

I also do this a lot with "why" questions. Instead of prompting "what is the definition of y?" I might prompt "why is the definition of y=f(x)?" That gives away essentially the entire answer but focuses on the why instead.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#288
I would argue that creativity is a tendency and fundamental property of an individual’s brain, rather than a skill that can be taught or learned.

Creativity does require a context, such as creating a piece of art, music or solving a problem, and then in order to make any meaningful contribution to that problem or piece of art, one needs to have enough knowledge to draw from.

This knowledge can be 1) exact, such as specific rendering techniques in the context of building a 3D renderer or scales for improvisation on piano.

Or it can be 2) informal, increasingly rich mental models.

For example, I have been improvising on piano for a long time, and I have a largely informal mental model of music theory that I draw from during improvisation of what would sound good and interesting and what wouldn’t.

In another instance, I’m building software, and I have a growing mental model of how computers work, from the hardware (CPU, GPU, instruction sets) to the software (drivers, operating systems, networking), and how specific programs have been written (web browsers, game engines, databases, certain libraries).

The same goes for specific domains I wish to build software for (e.g. AEC / architecture industry), for which I am also forming a well of knowledge of what kind of companies, organizations and individuals collaborate and how information flows between them, e.g. via specific file formats, standards or protocols.

These mental models and exact knowledge, are a prerequisite for creativity.

But the creativity itself is the tendency of my brain to then, in a specific context, associate and draw from these different mental models and this breadth of knowledge to come up with a piece of output.

This can be building a specific feature in software, or coming up with a novel chord progression and melody.

So creativity is not about knowledge, but about creating.

Creating is inherently hard to formalize, as one has to have a mental model far larger and deeper than what can be written down or communicated via text.

In addition, by attempting to formalize the mental model, one loses the impreciseness, fluidity and depth that enables venturing beyond reproduction.

This mental model of how to create is what comes from practicing. By playing the piano year in year out and trying out different things, one learns to create good music.

By programming for years, one learns to write beautiful software.

What defines good or beautiful, and how one achieves that is what creativity is. It is a taste. It is exactly that what goes beyond memorization and mere knowledge. It is not taught, it is learned by doing. It is the application of knowledge, and the internalization of years of practice.

TLDR:

Creativity is a tendency of an individual. Knowledge is a prerequisite, but creativity is about applying it. This requires a mental model that comes from years of practice.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#289
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot build complex electronics without having Ohms law in your mind as something fundamental you don’t have to look up. But I learned Ohms law without learning any formula, or memorizing any picture. I just internalized that electricity are electrons that gets pushed by a force against a resistance, so it is obvious that the amount that gets pushed through is force divided by resistance. I couldn't write down…

Most of the basic electric circuit formulas comes trivially from that fact, so I never had to study for that in physics. And as we know memorizing that fact doesn't mean people know how to do the electric circuit formulas, so memorization isn't enough, rather internalizing concepts is a completely separate process from memorization, and the quality of your internalized structure is the most important part here not ho…

> But all knowledge a person have is based on memory

No it isn't, tacit knowledge isn't based on remembering something it is based on having made a model that parses something. That is what you want to build, memory itself is mostly redundant compared to those models, as those models lets you easily rediscover information but memory doesn't let you parse problems.

Memorizing something implies there is a piece of information you can later recall. If there is nothing to recall such as with tacit skills then you don't learn it by memorizing, you learn it by practice and thinking and theorizing until it "clicks".

A computer can remember everything trivially, but it hasn't built any models based on the information so all that information is useful. The same happens in our head, the value isn't in the memory it is in the structures you built as an answer to that memory. The memory itself is a red herring, don't chase it, chase the understanding.

So for example, I have made a model in my head that parses electronic circuit problems for me, with that I don't need any formulas as it does the work. There is no memory tied to that model, it just solves things, there is nothing to recall, nothing to write down etc, it isn't a piece of information it is an active skill I have built. Saying otherwise is like saying that you memorize how to move your arm, no that is you building up intuition and reflexes, that isn't what we call memorizing.

You can call that a pattern matcher, you can't recall one of your heads pattern matchers. Pattern matchers can be tied to recall, but pattern matchers can also solve problems for you by themselves without ever invoking any memory. Pattern matchers are much more powerful than memories since they can solve a whole slew of similar problems while memories just solves one thing, so there is no need to go memory -> pattern matcher, you can go instantly to pattern matcher without ever commiting anything to memory.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#290

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

> We do this mainly because experts suck at empathizing with learners and fail to understand that the symbol has meaning for them but not for the learner. I hear you; but teaching deep expertise is really hard. We can use your example of a child learning their first language. They will really understand it. But people are famously, hilariously terrible at teaching their native tongue. We know how to conjugate, and ho…

> Here’s a weird fact: if you look around the room you’re in now, I bet you know what it would feel like on your tongue to lick everything you see. We probably learned that in the “put everything in your mouth” baby phase.

You are an expert. But if you wanted to, how would you teach that? I think the learner would just have to go lick a lot of things for themself.

This is such a weird and amazing analogy. Thank you for sharing it! I don't know if I've ever heard this concept explained in quite this way before.

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