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Panic at the Job Market

matt.sh

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Re: Panic at the Job Market

#281

Post by bmitc »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #263
bmitc wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideration your particular profile or the contributions you can make. This is really key. I have applied for jobs before, and then get questions like: "what's your experience with C++ or advanced graph algorithms?". Only that, none of that shows up in my profile or resume. But they act surprised and completely shrug off how a decade of software and other relev…

> While tough, it's often a good thing for the applicant as a natural filter. If someone can't hire well, it's not a good place to work. But for people like the guy who wrote that article, eviction eventually becomes a problem. And so many companies can't hire well right now that in a market with declining openings he might not be able to wait for a company that can hire well.

That is definitely true. And a lot of the jobs are jobs that the person would do well in, but the employers don't bother to see it. I know there are jobs that I would have done extremely well in, but the companies were just black boxes. They just sit around being unproductive while they wait for someone to check some arbitrary checkboxes. It'd be like trying to hire a farm hand but instantly reject them because they had only driven a different manufacturer of tractor.

As another anecdote, I applied to a job that I had a project that was much simpler than several of the things I had done in my past jobs. It was a job I know that I could almost do blindfolded, so to speak. But they would literally not even speak to me because I was missing a certification (a useless one, not some real certification like professional engineer or architect or whatever) that they were for whatever reason requiring. I even mentioned to the recruiter that I had had the certification but let it lapse because there was no reason to keep paying for it, and that I knew several people who had the certification that knew the language and area less than me. Didn't matter.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#282

Post by quasse »

csmpltn wrote: post #223

To the OP: I'm certain you're an experienced and seasoned programmer, but your CV (on your website: https://matt.sh/files/a-resume/resume.html ) is an example of how not to write one. It's a wall of text and fluff, with too much focus on fanciness and design. I hire and interview people all the time, and your CV leaves me with zero sense of the impact of your work - only with the fact that you've done a bunch of stuf…

> "Designed & Built a Redis Replacement"

Huge red flag right there as someone that has done hiring.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#283

Post by ricardobayes »

The worst thing I've heard lately is they started to "pit" people together and the "salary expection" is the real last round. You take five people who all passed the technical rounds and the one asks for the least amount wins.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#284

Post by elashri »

evrimoztamur wrote: post #23

I will add my two cents for people who believe that this might be related only to the SWE and tangent industries: It's really not. I have many friends (in Europe) who are trying to get through to different jobs in unrelated industries ranging from finance to fashion, or just trying to get promoted vertically (or horizontally), failing rather miserably. Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideratio…

I don't know what exactly kagi universal summarizer use but it didn't get tricked

output:

"The document discusses the current state of the tech job market, which has been impacted by rising interest rates. It explains how different types of tech companies, from speculative startups to stable enterprises, are affected by these economic changes. The author criticizes the ineffective and demoralizing nature of modern tech hiring practices, which focus on arbitrary tests and behavioral interviews rather than actual experience and capabilities. The document also provides several real-world examples of poorly designed technical systems and processes at tech companies. Overall, the text laments the deterioration of the tech industry, where many jobs have become impossible fantasy roles overloaded with divergent tasks."

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#285

Post by vidanay »

vitaflo wrote: post #265
lovich wrote: post #25

I generally like the article but the author seems to have a really inflated view of what jobs are paying. At one point he’s claiming that a stable non tech company like a tractor manufacturer is paying 5k-10k. Even assuming that’s including taxes so divide by two, and constraining to just software employees for that claim. There is no way the average pay is nearly a million a year. The average software engineer in th…

Yeah I had to stop reading when I got to that part. I get making a mistake and adding a zero accidentally but all of the daily compensation values were so far off from anything approaching reality I wasn't going to bother reading whatever other analysis he had for fear it would also be wildly inflated.

I honestly picked up a calculator and converted my annual salary to daily (based on 45 weeks per year) just to verify the absurdity of what I just read.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#286

Post by jprete »

not_wyoming wrote: post #171
mavamaarten wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why people hate them so much. From the employer side of things it only makes sense to get a feeling for someone's abilities other than an impression based on words alone. You can't believe the amount of shit solutions we've gotten from candidates. We just let you make a very simple kata. A tiny program that generates some console output, you have to refactor it to make it prettier and you need t…

> From the employer side of things it only makes sense to get a feeling for someone's abilities other than an impression based on words alone. I'd like to believe this is true, but it fails to explain why candidates for other business functions don't receive the same scrutiny. I'm not aware of analogous evaluations to get hired to other business roles (e.g. marketer candidates aren't asked to demonstrate a working kn…

I think the difference is that it's really hard to tell how difficult SWE work is and whether or not someone's doing it (since the real work is all in the brain). So it's comparatively easy for a fraudster to skate on very little knowledge/ability for a long time. When this happens with doctors or pilots we call it a major motion picture. When this happens with SWEs we call it Tuesday.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#287

Post by klyrs »

bmitc wrote: post #249
evrimoztamur wrote: post #23

I will add my two cents for people who believe that this might be related only to the SWE and tangent industries: It's really not. I have many friends (in Europe) who are trying to get through to different jobs in unrelated industries ranging from finance to fashion, or just trying to get promoted vertically (or horizontally), failing rather miserably. Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideratio…

> Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideration your particular profile or the contributions you can make. This is really key. I have applied for jobs before, and then get questions like: "what's your experience with C++ or advanced graph algorithms?". Only that, none of that shows up in my profile or resume. But they act surprised and completely shrug off how a decade of software and other relev…

As a literal graph theorist, I cannot tell you how frustrating it is that (a) nobody seems to understand my work except (b) interviewers use it as a shibboleth to exclude people from jobs that will never need high performance graph algorithms. That, I never get called for these interviews because I don't use react angles or something, but if they did, I'd crush the interview and fall asleep at my desk once they start giving me work.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#288

Post by jacobyoder »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #263
bmitc wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideration your particular profile or the contributions you can make. This is really key. I have applied for jobs before, and then get questions like: "what's your experience with C++ or advanced graph algorithms?". Only that, none of that shows up in my profile or resume. But they act surprised and completely shrug off how a decade of software and other relev…

> While tough, it's often a good thing for the applicant as a natural filter. If someone can't hire well, it's not a good place to work. But for people like the guy who wrote that article, eviction eventually becomes a problem. And so many companies can't hire well right now that in a market with declining openings he might not be able to wait for a company that can hire well.

The job market can remain irrational far longer than most people can stay solvent.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#289

Post by jauntywundrkind »

Sure it's like 4 long articles/diatribes smashed together with little bridge between them.

But I still love it. This capture the zeitgeist of where we are all too well. From pointing out the destructive cycle where only huge already well off companies are any good to work at, to hammering on the absurdly poor tech interviews, this is some decent almost-gonzo journalism that talks to the place & time, and boy are we at a wacky junction.

Rarely does it seem like there are sensible people steering the ship. It all feels madcap. And for reasons listed making new things is incredibly scary, hard, & long, isn't a desirable path for most employees.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#290

Post by Clubber »

coliveira wrote: post #262
mavamaarten wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why people hate them so much. From the employer side of things it only makes sense to get a feeling for someone's abilities other than an impression based on words alone. You can't believe the amount of shit solutions we've gotten from candidates. We just let you make a very simple kata. A tiny program that generates some console output, you have to refactor it to make it prettier and you need t…

Yes, you can weed out 50% of incompetent applicants, but that is not the issue. The problem is that the people who will excel in these questions are the ones playing the leetcode game for months. The people with real jobs will pass your question but will do so-so compared to the leetcode gamers, and the second group will get the job. Also, doing exceedingly well in the coding questions doesn't guarantee these people…

Too bad there isn't a test for "fucks given." That would weed out about 80% of applicants. I can work with just about anyone who passes that test.
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