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EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#281

Post by malermeister »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #279
palata wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism does not require an authoritarian state, period. It's much larger than that, and it is a gradient. Just like "not being socialist" does not mean that you are libertarian: you can be a moderate liberal. For instance, saying that public transportation should be public (i.e. belong to the state) does not mean that the state is authoritarian. You can have more moderate forms of socialism. I find it interesting…

> For instance, saying that public transportation should be public (i.e. belong to the state) does not mean that the state is authoritarian. Sure, but that's not socialism. That's state capitalism at most. There is not gradient. If society is socialist then as per definition and as explained there must be authoritarianism to suppress any private initiative. The article in French says the same thing as I wrote before:…

> There is not gradient. If society is socialist then as per definition and as explained there must be authoritarianism to suppress any private initiative.

This logic works both ways. There is authoritarianism to enforce private ownership in capitalism. The police is a tool of the capitalist class, designed to suppress any protest against the capitalist system. It even extends internationally, to Imperialism. One only needs to think of banana republics, or more recently, Coca Cola murdering union leaders.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#282

Post by mytailorisrich »

palata wrote: post #263
mytailorisrich wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between socialism and communism, then? If you listen to Leninists, 'communism' is the ultimate form of 'socialism' but really that was created because Russia's industry was judged too undeveloped to achieve what Marx described. But there is no meaningful systemic difference. I think "EU people" know that very well, including from experience. What's happened is that most "socialist" parties have…

> What is the difference between socialism and communism It's a bit like the difference between "liberal" and "libertarian". It is a gradient. Socialism is a more global term that includes communism. Communism wants to remove social classes and the notion of state. But there are ways of being socialist in a democratic state. It is a gradient, you can be more or less extreme. Communism is a pretty extreme notion of so…

As said, most socialist parties in Europe are no longer socialist...

There is no gradient. Either you want private ownership or you want socialised ownership. I think you are not quite clear about what "socialism" means because there are so many "socialist" parties in Europe that have not actually been socialist for 70+ years...

For instance in France, with people from the socialist party always referred to as "les socialistes"... Well, Miterrand and, say, Strauss-Khan, and even Macron (former banker...) who was finance minister in a "socialist government" are obviously as socialist as Barak Obama. The historic French socialist party, the SFIO, founded in 1905 was really socialist and split following the Russian revolution, whose supporters created the communist party (and they were actually the majority of the SFIO's members). They stayed socialist while the "socialist party" shifted over time to effectively social democracy. I think that this is because of the realisation that socialism requires authoritarism and does not work anyway, while pushing for more social measures within capitalism and a market economy can work.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#283

Post by rightbyte »

aniviacat wrote: post #245
sph wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The joys of representative democracy. The people are told they are free, but it's the oligarchy in their ivory tower that decide for you. Every few years you get told you can vote for the next liar to do their bidding in your name, and we, the people, keep the circus alive by telling each other "your vote counts! It's your fault if they're all thieves!" Government won't stop monitoring each and every citizen, and cit…

I don't think this discussion is happening against people's wishes. I think people outside of tech (99% of people) are far more likely to support such a law. You may argue that this is due to them not being sufficiently informed, but that's not to be blamed on representative democracy.

Everyone is part of some 1% group. Like imagine how many BS laws e.g. farmers or dentists have to deal with that we don't understand the full lunacy of.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#285

Post by RandomLensman »

palata wrote: post #265
RandomLensman wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong about the means of production being under social ownership in socialism? Yes, socialism allows also some private property and there is spectrum of how much it is a planned economy but social ownership of the means of production is a central component of socialism.

Socialism does not require an authoritarian state, period. It's much larger than that, and it is a gradient. Just like "not being socialist" does not mean that you are libertarian: you can be a moderate liberal. For instance, saying that public transportation should be public (i.e. belong to the state) does not mean that the state is authoritarian. You can have more moderate forms of socialism. I find it interesting…

That wasn't really my point but rather that social ownership of the means of production is a defining characteristic of socialism (as it was conceived in opposition to capitalism). Maybe there is a voluntary way to it but I don't think that has happened anywhere on a large scale so far.

These days there is a tendency to use socialism and practical present-day social democracy rather interchangeably, but I think that is problematic (and the latter doesn't really aim for socialism anymore, I'd say).

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#286

Post by RandomLensman »

malermeister wrote: post #281
mytailorisrich wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, saying that public transportation should be public (i.e. belong to the state) does not mean that the state is authoritarian. Sure, but that's not socialism. That's state capitalism at most. There is not gradient. If society is socialist then as per definition and as explained there must be authoritarianism to suppress any private initiative. The article in French says the same thing as I wrote before:…

> There is not gradient. If society is socialist then as per definition and as explained there must be authoritarianism to suppress any private initiative. This logic works both ways. There is authoritarianism to enforce private ownership in capitalism. The police is a tool of the capitalist class, designed to suppress any protest against the capitalist system. It even extends internationally, to Imperialism. One onl…

That is not quite the origin of the police everywhere.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#287

Post by rightbyte »

quectophoton wrote: post #173
teekert wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is this in the table: "All services normally provided for remuneration (including ad-funded services) are in scope, without no threshold in size, number of users etc." "Only non-commercial services that are not ad-funded, such as many open source software, are out of scope" Weird right? But it would be weirder if they would outlaw the application of mathematical operations on your own messages... oh wait that's…

> Are they going to put me in jail because I don't want them to read messages between me and my friends or my wife? Them: "If you don't show us your messages, you are probably going to jail. So if you don't change your mind, and end up in jail without having shown us your messages, that means whatever was in those messages was way worse than going to jail. You probably knew you were going to get a longer sentence if…

Oh dear don't give them ideas. I know like one password by heart if someone tries to force me to write it down.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#288

Post by hcfman »

tmtvl wrote: post #272
elric wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish there was a way for EU citizens to punish the council this behaviour. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be anything in place for that.

There is: EU citizens can engage their peers in dialogue on how this behaviour is terrible and they can try their darnedest to convince their peers to never vote for politicians who are part of the problem.

Yes that will work. Just like referendums work in the Netherlands for example. 90% the population vote in a referumdum against a particular agreement. The government voted for it anyway and then got rid of referendums.

That's how effective and democratic this all is.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#289

Post by nolok »

jiriknesl wrote: post #208
Jensson wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And at every stage people will talk about how horrible EU is as if this has already passed, just like last time.

Can't EU be terrible, just because those ideas get this far?

The EU is terrible because ideas are discussed and put to a vote? That's one way to view things I guess

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#290

Post by palata »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #282
palata wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the difference between socialism and communism It's a bit like the difference between "liberal" and "libertarian". It is a gradient. Socialism is a more global term that includes communism. Communism wants to remove social classes and the notion of state. But there are ways of being socialist in a democratic state. It is a gradient, you can be more or less extreme. Communism is a pretty extreme notion of so…

As said, most socialist parties in Europe are no longer socialist... There is no gradient. Either you want private ownership or you want socialised ownership. I think you are not quite clear about what "socialism" means because there are so many "socialist" parties in Europe that have not actually been socialist for 70+ years... For instance in France, with people from the socialist party always referred to as "les s…

Are you from the US, and trying to tell me that what EU people have been meaning by "socialism" in the last "70+ years" is wrong because that's not your definition?

My feeling is that US people tend to struggle understanding that there are cultural differences in the world, and think that "socialism" has to mean what they understand from their US-centric point of view.

"Socialism" is a bad word in the US, not at all in the EU.

> are obviously as socialist as Barak Obama

In my country, we tend to say that Barack Obama is our right wing, and those right to him are our far right. And that's not something you can debate: that's how we see it in my country. For me, Mitterrand is clearly to the left of Obama.

And Macron is a fraud, I don't see the point in bringing him here.

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