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Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

threema.ch

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Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#281

Post by dTal »

darby_nine wrote: post #104
miroljub wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chat control would benefit people, if they say it's for climate or lbqtg++ protection? But it won't benefit if they say it's to fight the terror or protect the children? If you really think that spying is OK, if they have "good enough" excuse, no wonder we get all this shit enacted.

[flagged]

Which is a very interesting asymmetry, if we're stipulating that these are merely excuses. It implies that "think of the gays" will lose you more votes than it gains, compared to "think of the children". Terrorists and children are apparently the optimally intersectional bogeymen and helpless wards respectively.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#282

Post by krick »

darby_nine wrote: post #3

I find it somewhat disturbing that this sort of thing is not considered a career killer for politicians.

We need to define "politicians" first. I can see your point if "politician career" means "being repeatedly elected" (even though other people pointed out what are the problems in this case). But the EU Commission isn't elected. These people are appointed by some fucked up complicated process. They definitely seem to have pretty good careers, but what are these careers — I wish I knew.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#283

Post by godelski »

henry_pulver wrote: post #131
blowski wrote: post #28

I too instinctively bristle at this kind of legislation. It's likely to be abused, with many false positive that make it more effective at sweeping up innocent people, while the guilty just find workarounds. But all coming on here and saying "ooohh, this is bad, innit!" is not very interesting, and unlikely to prevent it. Why is the EU doing this? Which political groups are supporting and opposing it? Why now? How ar…

> But all coming on here and saying "ooohh, this is bad, innit!" is not very interesting, and unlikely to prevent it. I disagree - this is how the internet can strengthen democracy. Upvoting and commenting makes this post hit the top of HN and stay there. This makes it visible to many EU citizens who can reach out to their MEP's to ask them to vote against it. Seems a pretty effective strategy to me as someone living…

Complaining is the first step and a necessary one. But complaints need to be turned into critiques and more steps need to be taken.

I'll state that as an American I'm quite unhappy with this as I know the regulations will also affect me and the truth of the matter is that I have a much smaller voice in this matter due to not being a European citizen. I do have additional worry since it was not that long ago which we saw the results of authoritarianism in Europe (though it did result in the strengthening of my country). And my concern is that authoritarianism creeps, often with good intentions but poor foresight. My biggest fear is that we did not learn the great lesson from WW2, in that Germany did not in fact go from good people to the entire country being evil and back to being good people. If we can't understand this process and see how it actually happens (with the details) it will only repeat, led by people that have. But I don't know how to get people to understand subtleties, and that seems like a major issue in a world growing increasingly complex.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#284

Post by efreak »

cryptonym wrote: post #228
uyzstvqs wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not applicable, nor enforceable. If this were to pass then the next Signal will be P2P. There are already some good protocols like Tox. Ironically the pervs will still be using WhatsApp, and just put their CSAM in a password-protected zip file before sending.

You should scan on the device before it goes on the network. P2P networking or not, the app should include a scanner. Even if you use an open-source clone without scanner, your contacts most likely will use an app with builtin scanner. Your communications will be scanned on their end. At that point I'm wondering why we don't also open and scan regular mail at the post office before delivery.

> At that point I'm wondering why we don't also open and scan regular mail at the post office before delivery.

We do open and scan some percentage of regular mail at the post office. It's difficult to find exact sources because the USPS only seems to easily admit to doing it for postage reasons, but it's fairly well known that they search for drugs, bombs, etc. Mail is subject to X-ray scanning and being opened under suspicion of a variety of things happening. When they can't open it themselves, they're also allowed to request permission from the recipient (you can refuse, but then they can go to a judge).

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#285

Post by krick »

Just want to point out that the blogpost doesn't seem very effective it achieving it's stated goal. I'm curious how many people actually acted on it (i.e., approached their MEP representatives) and if their actions had any effect.

You are urged to take action, but neither of the linked posts makes it easy for people to do that. Ok, there is a link to a website where I can find some email address for "Permanent Representation of ", thanks. Is it it? Should I send an email? Like, do I have to prove I'm a citizen of or is emailing them anonymously from some batman69@gmail.com email account is totally fine? I have no idea. Who is my counter-agent, how should I talk to them? Should I assume they are very well aware of the proposal and have their opinion, or are they most likely ignorant about all that stuff? What do I write? What this is supposed to achieve? Do I just email the url to this blog-post? Well, this should be actually a preferable solution, I imagine, but the blogpost doesn't seem to be written in a way to be convincing to a random MEP (assuming he NEEDS to be convinced).

I don't claim I could do better (I'm totally ignorant about all that stuff), but just saying it isn't as actionable as it could probably be.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#286

Post by taylorius »

latexr wrote: post #243
taylorius wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could say the same thing to you. You don't get to define "we" any more than I do. In fact my use of the collective "we" was directed primarily towards the claim of xenophobia - which definitely WAS an accusation thrown at people who supported Brexit. The thrust of my point was to single out the political ruling class in the EU for their refusal to listen to the opinion of their subjects. (I can't call them constitu…

> this new Orwellian EU law Yes yes, the UK doesn’t have those at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Safety_Act_2023 This is not a one-up game. Both laws suck, all governments (and systems of) have flaws. We should oppose them equally instead of pointing fingers and shrugging our shoulders.

Fair enough - that's true, for sure!

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#287

Post by swat535 »

MzHN wrote: post #257
prasoonds wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criminals absolutely will move away to something that is outside government control. Many such apps already exist and you can run what you like on Android phones with custom ROMs. Think about it - if you're a criminal, and you know about chat control, why would you risk your chats being leaked at all? Why wouldn't you use a different app that you know to be more secure (this already happens for any serious crime…

Until possession and distribution of such apps becomes a crime in itself. That's the only way to enforce it and there is history for it in cryptography export laws and anti-circumvention laws.

Criminals don't care about what is "legal", that's what makes the criminals in the first place and in any case, what are you going to do? Ban encryption entirely?

Perhaps we also should ban mathematics and books while we are at it? After all, criminals can read chemistry books and learn how to make explosives..

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#288

Post by swat535 »

romankolpak wrote: post #105

I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but I want to ask it because I see the same sentiment across HN and other forums and I’m legitimately confused. If we don’t hijack privacy in messaging, how do we fight crime happening on a message platform? If government doesn’t have access to message contents, what’s stopping criminals from using the platform and never get tracked down? Or proven guilty, since all the proof i…

How do we fight crime happening in houses? If government agents doesn’t have access to house contents, what’s stopping criminals from using locks and curtains in homes to hide their illegal activities and never get tracked down?

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#289

Post by gitaarik »

romankolpak wrote: post #105

I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but I want to ask it because I see the same sentiment across HN and other forums and I’m legitimately confused. If we don’t hijack privacy in messaging, how do we fight crime happening on a message platform? If government doesn’t have access to message contents, what’s stopping criminals from using the platform and never get tracked down? Or proven guilty, since all the proof i…

You should't fight crime with other crime, that makes you no better than the other criminals and doesn't solve the problem of crime but only increases it, and doesn't make society safer. If you want crime to stop, you should at least give a good example and deal with it in a responsible manner, and not deal with it by being a criminal too. Then you just get society divided even more. It doesn't help anybody. You can't expect other people to cease their crime if you're doing it yourself. A better society starts with being responsible.

Crime should not be approved of, and "crime fighting crime" shouldn't magically get an exception.

"But crime X is way worse than crime Y fighting it".

Crime should certainly be punished, but you cannot punish someone before you can prove their wrongdoing. And we have a court system for that.

Punishing people before they're proven of wrongdoing is criminal in itself. You should't give a certain group of people allowance to put prison collars on others without them having done any crime. At least not if you want to live in a free society.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#290

Post by gitaarik »

romankolpak wrote: post #105

I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but I want to ask it because I see the same sentiment across HN and other forums and I’m legitimately confused. If we don’t hijack privacy in messaging, how do we fight crime happening on a message platform? If government doesn’t have access to message contents, what’s stopping criminals from using the platform and never get tracked down? Or proven guilty, since all the proof i…

> If we don’t hijack privacy in messaging, how do we fight crime happening on a message platform?

Compare it to: if we don't put cameras and microphones in everybody's houses, how do we fight domestic violence?

You can't control everything, and you shouldn't want to. Giving a certain small group control over a much larger group is not a good idea, because you can never know that that small group will handle their power responsibly.

And domestic violence and crime happening on messaging platforms can still be dealt with in the traditional way: through our court system. And that happens and it works and it is fair (at least in essence, not counting corruption).

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