How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court • Hacker News Board

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#281

Post by glenstein » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 4:15 PM UTC

macNchz wrote: post #201

hmottestad wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for this, as I understand it, is that it's super easy to make a lightbulb that lasts 30 years. But there are two main trade-offs that make it bad for consumers: 1. Stronger filaments that last longer will be a lot less efficient, so the consumer ends up using a lot more electricity. 2. The filament doesn't burn per-say, but actually evaporates. This is why it'll eventually break. But where does the evapora…

I really don't see this as a debunking of the idea that the cartel was set up primarily to increase profits among its members. The engineering tradeoffs make sense, but it doesn't follow that because of these tradeoffs, the companies manufacturing lightbulbs were compelled to set up an organization that fined its members for making bulbs that lasted too long. The tradeoffs explanation seems like a post-hoc justificat…

This is a both can be true situation. Its legacy was a cartel oriented around protecting profits, but the coordination nevertheless also reflected an array of engineering compromises that made sense. The situation we have now is that those compromises continued to have a rationale beyond the existence of the cartel.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#282

Post by InSteady » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 4:16 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #276

Dutchie987 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that argument only holds when the customer is informed about those specific tradeoffs. The customer will choose the cheap bulbs because they can't be sure the expensive ones are better quality. They often aren't. Buyers want cheap bulbs, they don't want crap bulbs. If that means $1.25/unit is impossible, so be it.

Or alternatively, the customer simply DGAF about the quality of their $1.25 purchase. I have $1.25 bulbs in my home. I use them in unimportant locations with infrequent use. They are perfectly serviceable for this use. > The customer will choose the cheap bulbs because they can't be sure the expensive ones are better quality. They often aren't. This is a big problem for all consumer products. The root of the problem…

It is so much more difficult than it used to be to get trustworthy information about the quality of products. Seems like you have to already know of a hobbyist turned youtuber/blogger who has ideally done deep dives into a class of products or at least some relevant product reviews (or has a large subscriber base with active discussion threads).

Even trying to find such a content creator on the fly can be dicey since so many of them are doing paid reviews or at the very least are sent free products + incentives. That, or get lucky googling site:reddit.com/r/[subreddit] [product] to find a thread that isn't too recent, isn't overrun by shills and isn't woefully out of date and full of deleted/overwritten content.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#283

Post by BiteCode_dev » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 4:22 PM UTC

throwaway7ahgb wrote: post #179

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is people keep trying to stamp the diversity out. The model in the US is nominally to have few regulations limited to things like enforcing contracts and antitrust laws and pricing major externalities, then leave the rest of it to free market competition. That isn't compatible with a model where regulators are trying to run the economy, because then the regulators get captured by industry and thwart rathe…

Doesn't the US allow "diversity" by allowing different states to pass laws that their residence find important? I'm pretty sure CA has some specific right to repair laws. Also, this (to me) is a strange use for the word diversity.

The difference of culture between different parts of the world fosters bigger legal variations.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#284

Post by BiteCode_dev » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 4:24 PM UTC

peddling-brink wrote: post #161

Y_Y wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm often guilty of missing mistakes in my own posts, but as a PSA: please proofread your posts, especially if using prediction on a phone. You can edit your post if you do so soon after posting, and sometimes the meaning isn't lost (stale matches -> stalemates) but other times it (subjectively) is. For example I don't know what "rightful" should be here.

English may not be their first language. I found the post to be perfectly understandable.

Indeed, I'm French.

The thing is, if you say something stupid, people forget about it. If you write it down, it stays.

But often I write like I speak, not thinking about the consequences.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#285

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 4:27 PM UTC

fkyoureadthedoc wrote: post #251

beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a certain point we have to stop describing these situations as you "owning" something which broke, and instead describe it as you leasing the picture frame from that company for $0 (with an initial upfront cost) and the company failing to holdup on it's side of the deal.

In this case I'd be more inclined to call it planned obsolescence

Or just a defective product. It sounds like the company didn't even manage to test Factory Reset.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#286

Post by divan » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 4:31 PM UTC

luyu_wu wrote: post #223

divan wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't seen the video ... I disagree on a fundamental level. Right )

Parent of parent explained the premise of the video correctly. For someone who's complaining about the parent not watching the video, it really comes off as you having not even watched the video.

> it really comes off as you having not even watched the video.

I fail to understand the link here. The video contains arguments and examples of that premise. Dismissing arguments and jumping straight into the "here's my opinion" is exactly the communication style I chuckled upon.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#287

Post by InSteady » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 4:33 PM UTC

hirsin wrote: post #233

duckmysick wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do the manufacturers of long-lasting one-off-purchase products survive? Stuff like doors, windows, roof tiles, floor tiles, faucets, staircase railings, fences, etc. Are they filling Chapter 13 or are they in the process in reducing the lifespan so their products are replaced every couple of years? What's their secret?

They go broke or rely on an ever growing market, ie housing is always being built (most of your examples). But Instant Pot is the classic example of going broke because everyone bought exactly one of their products and never needed another (ignoring the three we have...)

I wish there was more tolerance for the Instant Pot situation in big business. Build a great product, sell wildly for many years, inventor becomes a multi-millionaire, many people are employed at good wages for a while, stock holders / investors make a reasonable return, millions upon millions of satisfied customers, and... that's it. The end of that particular story.

Keep a perfunctory tidbit of the once great company chugging along to provide replacement parts, do some servicing, and sell new ones at a much reduced volume. Just enough to keep a handful of people employed at good wages and turn a miniscule profit.

I know it is heresy to suggest this kind of thing when our entire way of life is predicated on infinite growth, but our entire way of life is also grossly inefficient (not to mention inequitable) and we are facing ever more scarce resources on a planet with less and less carrying capacity for our wasteful and destructive tendencies.

Of course this is all just yelling at clouds, because billionaires and the people who service them cannot be made to think in these terms, else they wouldn't be where they are in the first place.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#288

Post by newaccount74 » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 4:50 PM UTC

IX-103 wrote: post #225

bell-cot wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Took a look at my stove] Nope, all the easily-accessed wiring (under the stove top - which lifts like a car hood, for quick clean-up after a pot boils over) is in excellent shape. Insulation colors look a bit faded, but that's it. (Yes, all those wires bend a bit when you either remove a burner, or lift the top. But the design is such that the radius of those bends is extremely large, compared to the diameter of the…

Sounds like they really don't make them like they used to. Most things have moved to stranded wires due to their lower resistance per weight properties, despite their higher likelihood of breaking during bends.

I'm not an electrical engineer, but I am pretty sure that every cable that moves should be made from stranded wires. Stranded wires last longer when bent repeatedly.

Solid wires are used for fixed installation (eg. inside walls). Any cable with solid conductors must be mounted in such a way that it does not move or bend during use.

Electrical resistance is very similar for solid vs stranded conductors.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#289

Post by kube-system » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 5:01 PM UTC

InSteady wrote: post #282

kube-system wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or alternatively, the customer simply DGAF about the quality of their $1.25 purchase. I have $1.25 bulbs in my home. I use them in unimportant locations with infrequent use. They are perfectly serviceable for this use. > The customer will choose the cheap bulbs because they can't be sure the expensive ones are better quality. They often aren't. This is a big problem for all consumer products. The root of the problem…

It is so much more difficult than it used to be to get trustworthy information about the quality of products. Seems like you have to already know of a hobbyist turned youtuber/blogger who has ideally done deep dives into a class of products or at least some relevant product reviews (or has a large subscriber base with active discussion threads). Even trying to find such a content creator on the fly can be dicey since…

The availability of that information is probably worse than ~10 years ago, but still better than any time in the past before that.

Another problem is that there are just too many products these days. 40 years ago someone might have 5 options for a vacuum cleaner, period. Someone on the internet today might have 500 options. It's just information overload. Someone who really cares to, might go through the 236 options that Consumer Reports has tested [0]

But most people aren't the type of people who would spend a half-hour arguing about consumer product quality on the internet. Most people aren't willing to spend any time to evaluate their options for relatively small purchases beyond the immediate moment of purchase.

[0]: https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/vacuum-cleaners/b...

Good information for the quality of cheap consumer goods is hard to find because the information is not particularly valued by most people.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#290

Post by djbusby » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 5:15 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #169

duckmysick wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do the manufacturers of long-lasting one-off-purchase products survive? Stuff like doors, windows, roof tiles, floor tiles, faucets, staircase railings, fences, etc. Are they filling Chapter 13 or are they in the process in reducing the lifespan so their products are replaced every couple of years? What's their secret?

I have replaced or added many of those things. People remodel, build new houses, etc. There are certainly business models around goods that people aren't renewing on an annual basis. Collectively it's probably fair to say that people in a country like the US buy a lot of doors even if it's a rare purchase for an individual.

This place https://www.franklumber.com/ has been selling only doors for 50+ years.

One can model their business around market rules. It just might not be as huge as you want.