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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#281

Post by NayamAmarshe »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #245
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

The way you are phrasing your disagreement with prevailing consensus is just semantics. Ok, let’s say animals are not 0% conscious, let’s say a certain animal is 24% conscious. It’s reasonable to say that, in comparison to a human, this animal is not conscious. Clearly, my cat exhibits some awareness of what’s going on, it’s not totally mindless. But to call it conscious in the way that we apply this term to humans i…

So a human with a lesser IQ and EQ would be less conscious with that logic, hence worth much less and yet the concept of justice applies equally.

Intelligence is not consciousness. Consciousness is the thing that animates otherwise dead matter.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#282

Post by rodcon »

cf100clunk wrote: post #85
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one In your sentence I would substitute ''religious'' with other more specific terms like ''Judeo-Christian'' since Jainism and Hinduism have been talking about a continuum of consciousness in all living things for almost 3,000 years: specifically described by them as the Ātman and the Jiva. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4…

They are also considered conscious in Islam : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animals_in_Islam

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#283

Post by slumberdisrupt »

moi2388 wrote: post #250

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

If there is such a thing as consciousness, no matter its variety (like how the viscosity of water varies on a "spectrum" without become its opposites ice or steam), there is by necessity such a thing as non-consciousness. That's just how concepts go.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#284

Post by NayamAmarshe »

kazinator wrote: post #164
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

Projecting human traits, feelings and behaviors onto other people has no scientific basis, because there is no way of testing what's going on in their minds (assuming they even have minds). The dismissal of the idea that animals could be conscious is a form of solipsism.

and Solipsism is nothing but egocentrism at the end of the day.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#285

Post by [deleted] »

Jensson wrote: post #210
ivan_gammel wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animal language is obviously on the same level as human laughter and cries and whimpers. Animals don't teach language to each other like humans do. Obviously? There’s no reason to assume that. It is known that cetaceans acquire their language and dialects through social learning. It was very recently discovered that some whales even have names for each other. Their language may be different from ours, but it is not…

That is one example, I am talking about the animals humans think about when they think animal language: dogs, horses, cats etc. Maybe some animals have language closer to humans, but it is far from the common definition for "animal language".

[deleted]

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#286

Post by rusticpenn »

nikkwong wrote: post #258
moi2388 wrote: post #250

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

I think you're over complicating it. When people generally talk about consciousness, they're talking about the phenomenology of awareness in the present moment. It's not really hard to define. It's difficult to establish whether or not an animal is conscious in the way that it's difficult to establish whether another person is conscious. The only evidence we have for consciousness is the fact that we personally exper…

As a former owner of several cats, I can say that the cats I had definitely had consciousness. They were able to read my emotions and react to it. They knew how to get what they wanted. One of them loved looking at a mirror while wiping its face (It had observed me doing it). I could go on.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#287

Post by maxbond »

apantel wrote: post #71
illuminant wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consciousness is the inflection upon the potential of existential being. Literally life technology animating the quantum sieve within our neurons. Consciousness isn't a complex deck of cards, it is the singularity inside the quantum sieve. Intelligence is the mitigation of uncertainty. If it does not mitigate uncertainty it is not intelligence. All that other stuff about more or faster or sophisticated is something e…

Even an LLM couldn’t generate this.

It's an interesting perspective. I understand that the language choices they made were strong and thus not for everyone, but I don't see a reason to be rude about it. If it didn't make any sense to you it's probably because you didn't find it worth your time to parse it out, or similarly that there was unfamiliar terminology you didn't judge it worth your time to look up. That's fine, but that's a choice you made, no sense blaming them for it.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#288

Post by maxbond »

illuminant wrote: post #109
apantel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even an LLM couldn’t generate this.

Information is the removal of uncertainty, if it does not remove uncertainty it is not information. Uncertainty is the soft synonym for entropy. Entropy is the distribution of potential over negative potential. It is not that Truth is impossible to find, it is that undeceiving the self is difficult. Undeceive yourself of your own words if you will find something you have not anticipated.

What about if I think I know something and then realize I don't? Didn't I receive information that increased my uncertainty?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#289

Post by jamil7 »

searealist wrote: post #213
jschveibinz wrote: post #4

92 Billion animals are killed each year for food.[1] That doesn't include the 110 million that are killed each year for science. [2] These animals must not be conscious, or we would never do such a thing, right? Oh, and we keep over a billion pets in our homes and call them our friends. But they can't be conscious. The science must be flawed. /s [1] https://www.humanesociety.org/blog/more-animals-ever-922-bil... [2]…

Would you prefer those animals never existed?

Yes, obviously.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#290

Post by Vampiero »

King-Aaron wrote: post #263
moi2388 wrote: post #250

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

I once watched a spider in a web have to rapidly run around it's web and scoop up it's little baby spiders to escape a flame that was coming close to it. The reaction did not appear to be some kind of mechanical automated reaction - it very clearly had awareness of the danger, and an awareness of it's offspring, and made a coordinated effort to rescue them and move them away to safety. To me - as someone who is not a…

Optimize a creature for "survival" over billions of years and you get behavior like this. It doesn't require consciousness however. And it's quite hard to ask a spider whether it is conscious or not.
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