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Cyber Security: A pre-war reality check

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Re: Cyber Security: A pre-war reality check

#281

Post by racional »

roenxi wrote: post #280
chrz wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you saying that if US was kot involved then Ukrainy would have to do whatever Russia tell yhwm yo do and that would be better for Ukraine? And yes sure, Russia is nust defending itself

Ukraine was faced with a choice - do what the US wanted, or do what Russia wanted. The US choice resulted in massive death, destruction and so far it looks like Russia is going to get what they wanted anyway. What would the downside have been of just folding before the troops started moving? > And yes sure, Russia is nust defending itself Best defence is a good offence. They're flailing under strategic pressure from…

The Ukrainians made their own decision to fight.

They knew perfectly well it would involve massive death and possibly years of fighting. But they know their long history with their "brotherly" neighbors to the north, and hence, that even these costs would be preferable to perpetual subjugation.

If you can't recognize this fact -- if you think they're just passive puppets who do whatever the US tells them to; or that they aren't capable of evaluating the costs and risks and making a decision to side with their families and their future -- then not only have you not been following the chain of events since the start of the invasion (in which the US basically told them capitulate, after all); you really have no understanding of how human beings work when their families and communities are threatened.

Best defence is a good offence. They're flailing under strategic pressure from the US.

Nobody pressured them to do anything. Russia's actions are all offense, full stop.

Re: Cyber Security: A pre-war reality check

#282

Post by roenxi »

racional wrote: post #281
roenxi wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine was faced with a choice - do what the US wanted, or do what Russia wanted. The US choice resulted in massive death, destruction and so far it looks like Russia is going to get what they wanted anyway. What would the downside have been of just folding before the troops started moving? > And yes sure, Russia is nust defending itself Best defence is a good offence. They're flailing under strategic pressure from…

The Ukrainians made their own decision to fight. They knew perfectly well it would involve massive death and possibly years of fighting. But they know their long history with their "brotherly" neighbors to the north, and hence, that even these costs would be preferable to perpetual subjugation. If you can't recognize this fact -- if you think they're just passive puppets who do whatever the US tells them to; or that…

> ...if you think they're just passive puppets who do whatever the US tells them to

They're obviously not passive puppets. They had a choice - they could do what the US wanted, or what Russia wanted. That is more agency than most countries get when facing an existential crisis.

However, given that they chose to align with the US and we now have people talking in uncontroversial statements about it being a "pre-war era" the unfortunate reality here is that the option the US gave them was/is a diplomatic disaster that is very much in line with the US's NATO expansion strategy that they've been executing for the last 30-something years. It is a bad strategy that is leading to war.

> Nobody pressured them to do anything. Russia's actions are all offense, full stop.

Avoiding war requires both sides to reach some sort of mutual understanding. The Russian's aren't going to buy that bullshit. A lot of their troops just died because of NATO arms, held by troops that were at least in part NATO-trained, using NATO intelligence and NATO-approved strategies in a war that is part of a broad strategic push, by NATO, into Eastern Europe. They've figured out the role that NATO is playing here; the plan is obviously to contain and militarily cripple Russia.

That style of rhetorical bullying is very prevalent amongst western leadership, but if we want to find a peaceful solution they should be more honest. They provoked this.

Re: Cyber Security: A pre-war reality check

#283

Post by racional »

roenxi wrote: post #282
racional wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ukrainians made their own decision to fight. They knew perfectly well it would involve massive death and possibly years of fighting. But they know their long history with their "brotherly" neighbors to the north, and hence, that even these costs would be preferable to perpetual subjugation. If you can't recognize this fact -- if you think they're just passive puppets who do whatever the US tells them to; or that…

> ...if you think they're just passive puppets who do whatever the US tells them to They're obviously not passive puppets. They had a choice - they could do what the US wanted, or what Russia wanted. That is more agency than most countries get when facing an existential crisis. However, given that they chose to align with the US and we now have people talking in uncontroversial statements about it being a "pre-war er…

Avoiding war requires both sides to reach some sort of mutual understanding.

When the aggressor stations 200,000 troops at your border -- it isn't about "reaching a mutual understanding". The only "understanding" he is asking for by that point is that you lay back and let him have his way with you.

You're basically repeating standard propaganda lines here; I don't see this being a productive discussion.

Re: Cyber Security: A pre-war reality check

#284

Post by roenxi »

racional wrote: post #283
roenxi wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...if you think they're just passive puppets who do whatever the US tells them to They're obviously not passive puppets. They had a choice - they could do what the US wanted, or what Russia wanted. That is more agency than most countries get when facing an existential crisis. However, given that they chose to align with the US and we now have people talking in uncontroversial statements about it being a "pre-war er…

Avoiding war requires both sides to reach some sort of mutual understanding. When the aggressor stations 200,000 troops at your border -- it isn't about "reaching a mutual understanding". The only "understanding" he is asking for by that point is that you lay back and let him have his way with you. You're basically repeating standard propaganda lines here; I don't see this being a productive discussion.

> The only "understanding" he is asking for by that point is that you lay back and let him have his way with you.

Ukraine seems to have lost about 25% of their population, 10% of their land and their electricity network is being shelled. Who knows how long it will take for their economy to recover. There is a lot of room among those statistics for debate about whether just folding immediately would have been better or worse.

And Ukraine isn't really holding any cards here, any negotiations need to happen between there US and Russia. Getting good outcomes requires the US state department to get some actual statespersons involved instead of whoever has managed to push Europe to this pre-war mindset.

> You're basically repeating standard propaganda lines

If we're going to start slinging insults here, you're showing a dire lack of tactical empathy. You're not going to understand diplomacy unless you can get in to the headspace of people you don't agree with.

Re: Cyber Security: A pre-war reality check

#285

Post by racional »

roenxi wrote: post #284
racional wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding war requires both sides to reach some sort of mutual understanding. When the aggressor stations 200,000 troops at your border -- it isn't about "reaching a mutual understanding". The only "understanding" he is asking for by that point is that you lay back and let him have his way with you. You're basically repeating standard propaganda lines here; I don't see this being a productive discussion.

> The only "understanding" he is asking for by that point is that you lay back and let him have his way with you. Ukraine seems to have lost about 25% of their population, 10% of their land and their electricity network is being shelled. Who knows how long it will take for their economy to recover. There is a lot of room among those statistics for debate about whether just folding immediately would have been better o…

I wasn't seeing a great deal of tactical empathy in some of your own carefully chosen phrasing (e.g. "that bullshit").

So that, plus my sense that you were deeply mistaken about certain things, brought me to the view that the discussion had run its course.

Re: Cyber Security: A pre-war reality check

#286

Post by HeatrayEnjoyer »

mikewarot wrote: post #277
HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What app on my phone could delete the OS? It isn't even possible. It can't even delete normal user files without explicit file access permission.

Both iOS and Android have had zero day exploits announced this year, what makes you think they've all been found?

Zero days capable of nuking the OS are not going to be found in random apps or malware. Anyone with that kind of ability will be using it for nation-state targeted intelligence ops, not wasting it on random individuals.
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