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Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

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Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#281

Israel is an inherently inequitable and therefore likely terminally conflict-ridden ethnostate. Israel is a reasonable reaction to a long and terrible history of ethnic persecution. What's going on in Gaza is an unacceptable humanitarian tragedy that is a reaction to an unacceptable attack. There are players on both "sides" of this conflict that are driving it because they actually want the conflict, people who never…

Up until Hamas attacked Israel, Palestine relied on Israel to collect taxes. Collecting taxes is the bmost basic government function there is. Hamas had twenty years to become a government. It was uninterested in doing so. Israel is not the genocidal agent here.

This line of logic is so low level, why did a non-governmental party..not build a government..in a walled off open air camp...where an occupier controls what goes in or out & has destroyed things like seaports & airports.

VERY low level.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think much of what Israel has done in Gaza is justifiable, but "cannot kill civilians under any circumstances" can't possibly be the standard; if it was, the Nazis might still control most of Europe.

You twisted my words: I said "not entitled". Accidental civilian killings are not acceptable but yes of course they happen. Deliberate killing of civilians are war crimes. We must hold the IDF to the same standard as we hold Hamas. Neither is allowed kill civilians, neither is allowed starve a population, neither is allowed detain civilians (whether as "hostages" or "administrative detainees"), neither is allowed to…

There's all sorts of stuff in here I disagree with ("Hamas has by all accounts treated its detainees well"? There's video footage!) but it doesn't matter. We're not going to resolve Israel/Palestine on an HN thread. I have a very limited point to make here, which is that it can't possibly be the case that a party to a war can't kill civilians under any circumstances. If you agree with that, there's nothing for us to debate.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You twisted my words: I said "not entitled". Accidental civilian killings are not acceptable but yes of course they happen. Deliberate killing of civilians are war crimes. We must hold the IDF to the same standard as we hold Hamas. Neither is allowed kill civilians, neither is allowed starve a population, neither is allowed detain civilians (whether as "hostages" or "administrative detainees"), neither is allowed to…

There's all sorts of stuff in here I disagree with ("Hamas has by all accounts treated its detainees well"? There's video footage!) but it doesn't matter. We're not going to resolve Israel/Palestine on an HN thread. I have a very limited point to make here, which is that it can't possibly be the case that a party to a war can't kill civilians under any circumstances. If you agree with that, there's nothing for us to…

I addressed that in the first line!

To restate: why is Hamas' attack on Oct 7 bad? It's because they killed civilians. If we condemn that, then we must condemn all the IDF killings of civilians. If we do not, what basis do we have to condemn Hamas?

Israel's killing of civilians is a horrendous war crime. No we are not doing a carve-out because they really want to kill Hamas fighters. Absurd and horrific to suggest that.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's going on in Gaza is an unacceptable humanitarian tragedy that is a reaction to an unacceptable attack. Why is one a humanitarian tragedy but the other an unnacceptable attack. You're trying to absolve Israel of its role in the killing of 30,000 civilians over 5 months, to the condemnation of the entire world. Israel is not entitled to kill civilians under any circumstances, not even if Hamas makes it hard to…

I don't think much of what Israel has done in Gaza is justifiable, but "cannot kill civilians under any circumstances" can't possibly be the standard; if it was, the Nazis might still control most of Europe.

[flagged]

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#285

Israel is an inherently inequitable and therefore likely terminally conflict-ridden ethnostate. Israel is a reasonable reaction to a long and terrible history of ethnic persecution. What's going on in Gaza is an unacceptable humanitarian tragedy that is a reaction to an unacceptable attack. There are players on both "sides" of this conflict that are driving it because they actually want the conflict, people who never…

This is more eloquently put than I could write however it feels quite pessimistic (understandably so)

I personally have felt a bit more optimistic about the long term future.

Coming of age in post 9/11 America and going from the warm embrace of playing my Nintendo 64 everyday to seeing regular people go full on hate for people like me was a depressing era that I thought would never end. It certainly shaped how I view myself as a human. I guess you can say the haters got to me. A lot of things I aspired to in middle school completely ended in high school because of this self-hate.

I felt renewed hope during the Obama years in college but never really shook off this feeling. After all long term damage was already done regarding the path I took in life.

When Trump got elected, I felt all depressed all over again because all those terrible people came right back out of the shadows yet again but I eventually realized (finally) that I cannot keep letting this affect me. I had to focus on how lucky I am to have what I have and do the best I can.

When this attack happened, I thought oh no not again. Overnight all those people came out of the shadows yet again. But this time I saw something amazing. I saw countless numbers of people organizing against the Israeli siege: all over the world including the US. My initial thought was this is just a temporary blip and people will get tired and move on. Nope: protests continued even in the US which I was sure would just move on from caring about Muslims. It sometimes feels like the US will not come to the defense of Muslims like they would other groups. We see it in the favorability polling. But these protests: I have seen first hand, how this has really scared a lot of those people that normally come out of the shadows. The first time I have seen this in my life.

Now the protests are being dismissed as if they are nothing. Attempts are being made to silence any avenue they use to communicate. Meta platforms were already blocking this stuff, they deployed the standard bucket of tricks to silent dissent on Youtube and Reddit(thank god for HN) and now the potential banning of the 400lb gorilla in the room: Tiktok. This tool of potential Chinese propaganda helped serve a useful purpose: it amplified conversations that are normally taboo in the US.

So going back to why I feel a bit optimistic? Well I believe this is a signature event for Millennials and especially Gen Z. Gen Z is a generation that grew up with so many problems thrown in their faces (the mental illness caused by smartphones, graduating into a terrible job market, no prospects of owning property, having to live to see climate change etc.)

As a result they started out of the gate super pessimistic about the powers that be. I saw the unbelievable boost in Bernie Sanders's candidacy thanks the the efforts of these people. We really could be seeing a future Gen Z president who is in one of these pro-Palestinian protests.

Lets not even get into Gen-Alpha. They are on track to be the first majority non-white generation in America. How will that affect their world views?

Meanwhile where is Israel? This country that has continually gotten the benefit of the doubt my entire life has severely damaged its reputation in the eyes of young people world wide. The people that are about to take power. At the same time, they can't even get their own house in order regarding their government. This attack has proven that despite their supposed brilliance in war technology (Unit 8200, Stuxnet, etc.) they can really mess up and look like a bunch of dopes shattering the image that they are invincible.

In all Israel is trying to hold together by pushing back against "political" entropy, at some point given all the things that have transpired, entropy will win. How long will it take? Who knows. But I don't think you can make young people "unlearn" their views on Israel at this point and thats the challenge groups like AIPAC are going to have to face.

Now I do want to give an opposite view: That this is indeed a flash in the pan

Here is Noah Smith's recent article on how both the far right and far left are dying.

[1]: https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/getting-past-the-2010s

>"I think this is part of the reason progressives are turning more and more toward Palestine as their single overarching cause. The extremist types who dominate progressive groups after “evaporative cooling” has removed the moderates are more likely to be leftist types, who see all political action as falling under one unifying anti-Western decolonial revolutionary struggle. And with general enthusiasm on the wane, activist groups are looking for something that can restore the free-flowing rage from which they drew their energy in the 2010s.

>And if you’re going to unite around a single cause, I suppose Palestine isn’t such a bad choice. Israel’s war in Gaza has been undeniably brutal — not a real genocide, but similar to Bashar al-Assad’s bloody indiscriminate crushing of rebellious provinces in Syria. Hamas is evil, but that doesn’t mean tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians need to die. And support for Palestine gets massive amounts of support and attention from foreigners on social media, boosting online engagement — which might encourage more Americans to be activists.

>The problem here is that as with every progressive activist cause, activist movements are embracing the most extreme possible position. Instead of simply calling for a cease-fire, many, like Aaron Bushnell, demand the destruction of Israel. Whereas a normal liberal might use the term “apartheid” to refer to Israel’s disgraceful treatment of West Bank Palestinians, progressives increasingly use the word to mean the very existence of the state of Israel. And when they call for “decolonization”, progressives increasingly mean the mass expulsion of Israelis from the region.

>That is not a position that the U.S. — or other powerful countries — are ever going to support. Staking out this extreme position might seem to reduce the risk that the issue will be solved anytime soon — even if Israel stops its war, progressive activists can keep on marching for Palestine as long as Israel continues to exist. But ultimately that will drain the moral force from the progressive position, causing the activist base to shrink even further."

Frankly I dont know really know how the wind will end up blowing but lets all see what happens.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think much of what Israel has done in Gaza is justifiable, but "cannot kill civilians under any circumstances" can't possibly be the standard; if it was, the Nazis might still control most of Europe.

You twisted my words: I said "not entitled". Accidental civilian killings are not acceptable but yes of course they happen. Deliberate killing of civilians are war crimes. We must hold the IDF to the same standard as we hold Hamas. Neither is allowed kill civilians, neither is allowed starve a population, neither is allowed detain civilians (whether as "hostages" or "administrative detainees"), neither is allowed to…

this seems about right. i think we might be living in the most orwellian times ever. numerous, independent sources of info showing that Israeli soldiers doing things far more barbaric than what hamas millitants do and we've got the entire media apparatus apparently just admitting it exists to defend and cover for israel. I feel like we are entering a new era, kind of like the start of world war 1 where the rules change and nobody is going to be relying on international law or universal standards of human rights. there was something like norms a few months ago and now there are not. nobody will take us seriously when we criticize over it. we've been hypocritical before. this is just in your face, open and blatant lying. these agreements have been murdered by members of the very community it was created for, after they had received some of the worst oppression in human history. what an utterly horrifying and tragic story. one of those "this ends in the worst way possible" kinds.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's going on in Gaza is an unacceptable humanitarian tragedy that is a reaction to an unacceptable attack. Why is one a humanitarian tragedy but the other an unnacceptable attack. You're trying to absolve Israel of its role in the killing of 30,000 civilians over 5 months, to the condemnation of the entire world. Israel is not entitled to kill civilians under any circumstances, not even if Hamas makes it hard to…

I don't think much of what Israel has done in Gaza is justifiable, but "cannot kill civilians under any circumstances" can't possibly be the standard; if it was, the Nazis might still control most of Europe.

[flagged]

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#288
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud computing and AI technology is at the heart of the modern battlefield. Let's say it was a speech by the Google Palestine director in charge of selling cloud computing and AI technology to the military wing of Hamas, at a conference where a Hamas spokesman was also giving a speech. Would you also consider there to be no political connection there?

If you support the Palestinian peoples and the cause for peace or one of the various proposed solutions for long term peace, there’s no problem. Debate and differing opinions are expected. Hamas though is a terrorist organization. Internationally recognized as such almost universally. They started this war with rape, murder, and kidnapping of innocent civilians. If you do business with them you’re breaking the law. I…

Israel committed war crimes. That's why their researchers are being protested. Everything you said is besides that point.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#289

Lately it seems that more and more rank-and-file employees believe that a company has some sort of moral obligation to take their political opinions into consideration. Corporations aren't democracies. Unless you're an executive or high ranking decision maker, you're along for the ride. I don't ask my kids for their opinion about my home budget, what house I should buy, etc. So it is at work. Expecting a company to k…

Expecting a publicly traded company not to openly support a military committing war crimes isn't pretentious or shocking, actually. It's quite the norm.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#290

Israel is an inherently inequitable and therefore likely terminally conflict-ridden ethnostate. Israel is a reasonable reaction to a long and terrible history of ethnic persecution. What's going on in Gaza is an unacceptable humanitarian tragedy that is a reaction to an unacceptable attack. There are players on both "sides" of this conflict that are driving it because they actually want the conflict, people who never…

Great, why is the United States taking sides in an ethnoconflict? How many voters even care about this issue vs how many are being dragged into it? Why do both presidential candidates speak at AIPAC?

Makes 0 sense for us to take sides in this conflict.

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