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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#281

Post by wolverine876 »

boringg wrote: post #66
moshun wrote: post #32

For context, a total of 69 journalists were killed in WWII, 63 in the Vietnam war both of which lasted several years. As of today March 6th 2024, the Gaza invasion has left 86 journalists dead in less than 4 months. That is an amazingly high percentage for the expected mean in a conflict. Sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel... https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-j…

That may be true but a couple things have changed since those very dated sample points. (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous spots. (5) speculation -> journalists who are using press credentials as cover I'm neither way on the conflict but want to co…

> (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous spots.

How have these things changed, and how have the changes affected the number of journalists killed? The changes could reduce the number.

My point is, we need much less speculation and possibilities, and much more credible fact. CPJ provides some credible fact.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#282

Post by eropple »

mschuster91 wrote: post #225
moshun wrote: post #32

For context, a total of 69 journalists were killed in WWII, 63 in the Vietnam war both of which lasted several years. As of today March 6th 2024, the Gaza invasion has left 86 journalists dead in less than 4 months. That is an amazingly high percentage for the expected mean in a conflict. Sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel... https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-j…

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The framing of Gazans as a whole as "Hamas's people" is at best problematic; Hamas is an accelerationist and revolutionary movement that believes that dead Gazans advance their aims.

Israel seems pretty happy to help Hamas out with proving out their theory right now, but it's important to note that a Gazan could've been born and raised literally to the age of majority without getting a chance to vote on whether they think Hamas is doing right by them.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#283

Post by Workaccount2 »

kurthr wrote: post #56
Workaccount2 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Hamas has to do is issue uniforms for fighters. Israel would probably even voluntarily foot the cost. But Hamas won't do it because of how much leverage civilians getting killed gets them.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-04/ty-article-opinio...

I don't see what that has to do with hamas fighters properly identifying themselves.

However I can't help but feel that it would dramatically lower collateral damage as regular civilians would also know who is a target and who is a civilian.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#284

Post by wolverine876 »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #161
ciconia wrote: post #25

> Around 10% of Gaza's journalists have been killed versus 2.5% of healthcare workers. One possible explanation is that journalists have a much higher probability of being close to where the fighting is, than healthcare workers.

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> Another possibility is that they also had a second job working for Hamas - so, on a list of "not really journalists".

I think we need less baseless speculation in this discussion. Another commenter posted links to the Times of Israel, which of course is very imperfect, but it's a start.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#285

Post by bawolff »

erokar wrote: post #259
bawolff wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to international law, i think human rights groups are more like the "prosecuter" than a neutral party. They have an interest in this conflict that is not the same as Israel's. When HRW says Israel is bad, i think its a bit like when a cop says the person they arrested is bad. It may very well be true, but i wouldn't put it as a sure thing until some sort of trial is done. P.s. in regards to "porportiona…

> They have an interest in this conflict that is not the same as Israel's. You are quite right, Israel's interest is to kill and displace the Palestinians, crush them as a people. Very few human right groups would have an interest that aligns with that.

Israel would and has claimed otherwise.

Maybe you don't believe them, but if the goal is to determine truth its probably better to start from a place of assuming innocence and change views based on evidence, not the other way around.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#286

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

js4ever wrote: post #234
henry2023 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of that population was already displaced and lack basic services such as food, shelter, and electricity. Israel even goes to bomb civilian shelters because why not. I’m glad you’re not being targeted by any genocide but if you would. I’d stand for you.

Hamas (elected government of Palestine) started a war on October 7. Did they expected no retaliation? Jews should just die silently? Not really going to happen. As anywhere else in the world, response to this kind of attack Is a war. When terrorists use shelters or any civilian infrastructure to launch rockets they are turning them In legitimate targets according to laws of wars.

> Hamas (elected government of Palestine)

My understanding is that Hamas candidates won a plurality of seats in an election in 2006, then Hamas essentially started a civil war in which it rejected the legitimacy of Fatah (and, by extension, the internationally-recognized leadership of the Palestinian Authority) and seized control of the Gaza Strip for itself. It does not rule the West Bank, where the majority of Palestinians live. I would not describe that as the "elected government of Palestine". Am I misunderstanding something?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#287

Post by samatman »

pests wrote: post #272
brink wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? Use your basic reasoning. Hamas fights in civilian clothing, they hide in civilian buildings, they hide in hospitals. They use regular civilians as shields. This is not your average fight; Hamas hates their enemy more than they love their own country.

Maybe another method is needed then? If you can't tell innocent people from legit targets... rethink the approach? Here is my reasoning: they hide in civilian clothes, okay let's not shoot civilians. They hide in hospitals, okay let's not bomb hospitals. They use civilian buildings, okay let's not bomb civilian buildings. They use civilians as shields... let's not shoot the shields. How is that unreasonable?

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#288

Post by karim79 »

boringg wrote: post #81
henry2023 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we seeing the same percentage of journalists killed by the Russian army in Ukraine?

Totally different war structure.

I agree. In Ukraine, combatants are not fighting from within an overpopulated prison camp.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#289

Post by colonCapitalDee »

archagon wrote: post #165
psunavy03 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protected sites lose their protected status under the law of armed conflict if they are used to hide/support combatants. Agree or disagree with Israel's targeting policies; that's still the law and has been for decades.

If the law permits thousands of innocents to be slaughtered, then maybe it needs to change.

This a common misunderstanding of the international laws of war, and international law in general.

In our personal lives the government can compel us to follow the law with the threat of overwhelming force; if I break the law I will be arrested, and regardless of how much I fight back I will not be able to stop it. Laws in our everyday lives are like commands from a parent to a child; the government, as the parent, can and will compel the child's obedience.

International law is different. If a state breaks international law, there is no entity willing or capable of using overwhelming force to compel obedience. States have armies and some have nuclear weapons; the amount of force required to compel a state to behave a certain way is huge, and generating that force is extremely costly. When states break international law there are consequences, but at the end of the day violence is generally not on the table.

Effective international law is a balancing act. An international standard of warfare that placed extremely strict standards on when it was permissible to kill civilians would make fighting a war significantly harder. No state would obey such a law because winning the war is the absolute highest priority, making the law worthless. Instead, laws of war try to outlaw actions that don't affect the ability of a country to win a war. No chemical or biological weapons (high explosives are more effective), humane treatment of prisoners (discourages the enemy fighting to the death), and no killing civilians unless in the pursuit of a military objective (if it's not in pursuit of a military objective, then it's a waste of resources). The goal of the laws of war is to prevent unnecessary violence, not prevent violence altogether. It's a case of "perfect is the enemy of good."

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#290

Post by ars »

erokar wrote: post #251
ars wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has also been one of the deadliest wars for civilians in general. That's not actually true. The ratio is similar to other wars. Civilians die in war, they die a lot. War sucks. But Gaza is not unusually deadly compared to other wars.

Compare it to the Russia/Ukraine war. Not even close. In any case Israel is not conducting a war, they are conducting a massacre.

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