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To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

nytimes.com

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Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#281

Post by haberman »

vore wrote: post #50
kepler1 wrote: post #38

I commented a few times here over the years criticizing decriminalization as it came up as an option, against loud / vociferous people saying, how can you continue to embrace criminal penalties that clearly aren't working. As if it were crazy to believe that people need laws to obey. I said that you can make all the rational step-wise choices in the world, and find yourself led down a path to oblivion, where you've m…

The problem is that the people using drugs out in public are already at rock bottom: there aren't many punishments you can use to deter that, short of putting them in jail and when they come out they're just going to be using drugs in public all over again. I'm somewhat receptive to the idea of mandatory treatment but as it stands, "enforcing some harsh laws" doesn't do anything to curb recidivism – temporarily incar…

> short of putting them in jail and when they come out they're just going to be using drugs in public all over again.

The "Seattle is Dying" documentary describes a treatment program called the "MAT Program" (medically assisted treatment) that is used in Rhode Island prisons. They interview several people -- both leaders of the program and former addicts -- who speak positively about it: https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw?si=ZkMQb3tb5P_Ztbvs&t=2645

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#282

Post by rjbwork »

felizuno wrote: post #168

So much sympathy for drug users and business owners, but what about the private citizens who get victimized by these drug users? I was beaten nearly to death (in broad daylight, in a residential neighborhood) in Seattle in 2020 by two men enabled to descend into meth addiction by permissive policies. In my victim support group I met so many people - innocent people - permanently injured & disfigured like me, or raped…

I actually don't think we should decriminalize. Just legalize it and let people get pure product at dirt cheap prices.

There's no reason to fund crime (drug dealers/organized crime), maim and kill users, push users into poverty, and generate and push the externalizes of drug use onto the rest of society. This is the choice we have made and continue to make a society under a prohibitionist regime, decriminalization or not.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#283

Post by Consultant32452 »

coffeecloud wrote: post #235
Consultant32452 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> give people housing for free (or throw them in jail.) This is a false choice. >Would you rather be right, or live in a city without homelessness? I can be right and also live in a city without homelessness. I'll just ship them to wherever you live, because you're so nice that you are volunteering to take care of the problem.

What option is there besides give people housing, let them lived unhoused, or jail them for not acquiring housing?

You will never eliminate severe mental illness. You can, however, create systems that understand human incentives. If you can't even imagine options that don't involve systemic centralized planning, we are so far from moving towards peaceful solutions that my only incentive is to ship the antisocial people to your neighborhood.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#284

Post by Daz1 »

jefftk wrote: post #276
anonygler wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. Decriminalizing drugs has skyrocketed schizophrenia and homelessness. Drugs should only be legalized in specific, medically necessary situations. Recreational use should be stigmatized and dealers should be handled as Duterte advocated. The crime of the War on Drugs was that we had double standards, not that we had a War on Drugs.

Do you apply this logic to alcohol? (And if no to alcohol, then what about marijuana?)

[flagged]

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#285

Post by jasonfarnon »

hifreq wrote: post #245
anon291 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not fairy tales. Its human need for attachment to something greater. America has not filled that with anything else. The previous flag waving civic nationalism has become demonized so now there's nothing.

> America has not filled that with anything else That's not an issue that America has to solve (i.e. the government or the society). It's an individual need that every individual is responsible for.

Does America have to solve it if America destroyed it?

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#286

Post by [deleted] »

qingcharles wrote: post #66
legitster wrote: post #57

Drug legalization is something I have come 180 on (or at least, 90 degrees). Portland did everything! They invested huge sums in shelters, treatment programs, counsellors, etc. ODs have more than doubled, and the shelters are half empty! They are not one more social program away from cleaning out the streets. I think the experiment has radically failed and I'm ready to say I was wrong. While I don't want to go back t…

This is such a hard problem to solve. I work with drug and alcohol addicts regularly and addiction is such a damned nightmare. And every homeless person hates shelters. They have way more rules than prisons and all of the drama. I don't know what the solutions are :(

[deleted]

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#287

Post by creato »

theossuary wrote: post #200
notyofriend wrote: post #150

Singapore has no drug problems. You might think what they do is extreme but it works.

Well what they do is: - Have a government who owns almost all the land, and provide subsidized housing to over 75% of the citizens. - Provides universal healthcare, again subsidized through the government - And forces quotas for all ethnicities to ensure everyone is equally represented everywhere. So I guess we could try it Singapore's way, but Republicans keep saying it's a bad idea.

They also:

- Have extreme penalties for drug offenses.

- Have highly effective surveillance and law enforcement.

I guess we can all find what we want in Singapore: an effective police state winning the war on drugs, or an effective welfare state.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#288

Post by gopher_space »

noduerme wrote: post #212
drewg123 wrote: post #110

Nowhere in these comments have I see anybody take the position that decriminalization is not enough; drugs need to be legalized and regulated. I have a close friend whose relative is a heroin addict. According to her, a lot of overdoses are due to almost no "heroin" actually being heroin, rather its fentanyl cut to varying degrees of strength. Not knowing what you're taking, and not knowing how strong it is, can lead…

>> decriminalization is not enough; drugs need to be legalized and regulated. This has been an increasingly popular argument here in Portland since decriminalization. It's deployed, generally, in terms of re-criminalizing hard drugs until there's a well thought out framework for safe, regulated legalization. While I agree in principle [edit: let's say I did agree, but my views on this subject have shifted radically s…

> And remember - we did have a long experiment with legally prescribed opioids, and their widespread availability contributed to the current addiction crisis.

People couldn't just go to a store; trusted family advisors were overprescribing due to intentionally misleading advertising. The addiction crisis is what happens when insurance no longer covers the pills.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#289

Post by seanmcdirmid »

BriggyDwiggs42 wrote: post #191
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - imprisonment is not effective at curbing drug use in individuals or systemically, because illicit drugs will always be available, see prohibition for the strongest case here I disagree that hardline policies can't work. In China, there is no social safety net for drug users (nor much for anyone else), nor is there much sympathy for it, therefore...drug abuse happens for sure, but it just doesn't survive very long…

I mean if you propose we just kill addicts it might be effective in some cold, economic sense, but it sure would be great not to do that. I don’t know why you’d use china as an example unless thats what you’re suggesting. Say we put someone in prison then treat them for drug use and it works. This person is cured, found jesus, and will never touch another drug in their life. Why would you still keep them in prison? T…

That wasn’t the point. Some of addicts in China are dying, but given the lack of a social safety net at all, most are just willing not to go there. Here in the USA, you can try fent with the local idea that mom, dad, or maybe society, will put you back together. In China, none of that will happen, your chances of ruining your life are obviously high, so doing drugs isn’t really an option.

But we can’t really go there as a western country, so we try to socially reduce the consequences of drug use: not only are we not going to throw you in jail, but we are going to make sure you don’t starve/freeze to death and we will even try to cure you (even if we are going to fail at that most of the time).

If we had drug treatment in prison that worked, we would be horribly stupid not to just lean in on that. I’m totally for “go to prison but get out of you get clean.” Who wouldn’t?

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#290

Post by pydry »

anonygler wrote: post #250
drewg123 wrote: post #110

Nowhere in these comments have I see anybody take the position that decriminalization is not enough; drugs need to be legalized and regulated. I have a close friend whose relative is a heroin addict. According to her, a lot of overdoses are due to almost no "heroin" actually being heroin, rather its fentanyl cut to varying degrees of strength. Not knowing what you're taking, and not knowing how strong it is, can lead…

Hard disagree. Decriminalizing drugs has skyrocketed schizophrenia and homelessness. Drugs should only be legalized in specific, medically necessary situations. Recreational use should be stigmatized and dealers should be handled as Duterte advocated. The crime of the War on Drugs was that we had double standards, not that we had a War on Drugs.

Homelessness skyrocketed in line with rents.

That could just be a coincidence though - that increasing the price of homes caused people to stop being able to afford them.

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