Live data from Hacker News

Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

electrek.co

281–290 of 504 posts

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dumb question but why does deciding to run at a higher voltage decrease the amount of wiring necessary? And why not increase it even further then?

Watts = Amps * Volts (or, more scientifically, P = I * V) If something draws 48 Watts of power, you can either supply it with 4 Amps @ 12 Volt, or 1 Amp @ 48 Volt. It's the amps that determine how thick the wiring needs to be, so by lowering the amperage, you lower the amount of wiring needed. I believe the only reason cars are 12 V is because that's a practical voltage to build lead-acid batteries at (which is actua…

Things like stator motors were also probably quite difficult to do at 6v.

I know the older Honda CT110 postie bikes came in 6v in the old days. That was a kick start.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#282

Many comments here seem to be confusing the accessories circuit voltage with the electrical vehicle motor and drive system. The vehicle motors have a combined power output of 450KW which requires a high voltage 800V system or the wiring would be so heavy it would not be feasible. This spec appears to be the accessories circuit with Tesla pushing for a new 48V standard. That’s super smart because it immediately means…

Dumb question but why does deciding to run at a higher voltage decrease the amount of wiring necessary? And why not increase it even further then?

48V is good because a lot of safety standards have the cut off for 'extra-low voltage' at 60V DC, gives you a bit of margin (when battery charging it pushes up to be in the 50s for example). Some battery systems I've seen at 56 volts nominal too. so sometimes people do have a bit higher-voltage ELV systems.

48V still lets you touch both conductors with dry hands and it's still very unlikely for you to be able to get any current to flow through you, you can't even feel it (although with safe working practices you'd only touch either positive or negative at one time, not both). Obviously it's very much not the case to be able to touch the 800V conductors safely in the traction systems in EVs, that side is extremely dangerous and requires extreme caution and safety procedures!

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> using ethernet and PoE means you don’t have to run one off wires to each device, they can share a bus which results in half the copper being used in a lower voltage car You mean like CAN bus is being used since 1990s? I think that Mr Munro little bit fell asleep and missed whole CAN bus and FlexRay evolution in cars.

CAN bus is still really slow (1Mbps, so bus contention is a problem). Sensors, cameras, AV stuff, etc. can't all live on the CAN bus. Cars are not the same things they were in the 90s.

>cameras

Yes. Post 2021 teslas have nine cameras scattered all over the body. For AV, Tesla would like to get much higher resolution and frame rates out of them.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#284
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla didn’t invent 48 volts either. The EV and hybrid electric world were talking about 48 volts when Musk still worked at PayPal, if not earlier. One of the examples pulled out at that time was that you could shave a couple pounds of copper off the alternator by running it at 4x the voltage. Much thinner wires.

Tesla's greatest innovation is simply leadership. Everyone knew castings were the way to go, but noone did it. Now people like Volvo are doing them, and I expect a lot of others to do it as well. Everyone knew that 48V would be a big benefit, but noone did it. TBH, in a few years, we may be saying similar things about drive-by-wire without a mechanical backup. But it is too early to say definitively.

>> Tesla's greatest innovation is simply leadership.

Totally correct. We were making 48v power steering systems 20 years ago for OEM development projects. They simply don't have the will/commitment/leadership to bring change like that to market.

Elon sets a direction and people go that way. I can imagine someone at GM listing all the obstacles as a reason they can't change, and Elon looking at them and saying "no, you're the obstacle" or something like that.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#285

Many comments here seem to be confusing the accessories circuit voltage with the electrical vehicle motor and drive system. The vehicle motors have a combined power output of 450KW which requires a high voltage 800V system or the wiring would be so heavy it would not be feasible. This spec appears to be the accessories circuit with Tesla pushing for a new 48V standard. That’s super smart because it immediately means…

Dumb question but why does deciding to run at a higher voltage decrease the amount of wiring necessary? And why not increase it even further then?

You've already gotten a bunch of answers but to be honest I find all of them a little incomplete if you don't have any electrical background, so here is my attempt to be quite thorough from (almost) first principles.

---

The equation for power delivered by an ideal system is P = IV, or power (P) = current (I) * voltage (V). Power is measured in watts, and that is generally the overall number that matters, in terms of what you can run off of your system at the same time.

So to increase the wattage (power) of your system you can either increase the voltage or the current.

- Increasing the voltage of a system increases the amount of resistance it can "break through". In "danger to human" terms, our skin is generally not a great conductor, so voltages lower than 50V usually won't enter the body (read: vital organs) at all. Voltages above 50V will start to enter the body depending on conditions, which is when electricity becomes much more dangerous.

- However even if the voltage is high enough to enter the body, if the current (I) isn't very high it still won't be dangerous. Current is measured in Amperes (A), and the usual number at which a current inside the body becomes dangerous is above 30mA. 30mA can cause respiratory failure if it passes through the lungs, current as low as 100mA can cause cardiac arrest if it passes through the heart. In a car's electrical system, the currents we're operating with are definitely going to be over the 30mA threshold we just established, so we want to keep the voltage under 50V instead.

Anyway back to cars and ignoring danger to humans for a second. Resistance is the main thing you want to overcome when it comes to the efficiency of such a system. The equation for power loss is P = I^2 * R, or "power dissipated (as heat) is proportional to the square of the current times the resistance". So if you increase the current of your system (in order to deliver more watts) you will also increase the amount of power you lose as heat. You can decrease the loss by decreasing the Resistance.

The equation for resistance through a material is: R = ρ * (L/A), or Resistance = resistivity (an innate property of the material) * Length / Area. In other words, the longer your wire is the more current you will lose to resistance. But if you increase the cross-sectional area of your wire (A) by making the wires thicker, you decrease the resistance.

So in short: if you have a high current (amperage) system, you use thicker wires in order to ameliorate resistive heat loss. But you can alternatively just decrease the amperage to reduce your resistive heat loss, which means thinner (and therefore much lighter) wires. But then you need to increase the voltage of your system in order to offset the power you're losing by decreasing the current. If you increase the voltage by 4x, from 12V to to 48V, this keeps it under the human danger zone (of 50-60V) and means your wires can be up to 16x thinner, taking up less space and less weight. Having it be a nice multiple of the previous system (4x) should make upgrading the relevant circuits a little more straightforward as well.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#286
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of an arbitrary determination; 60V is the international common denominator on what various legal or civic (e.g. insurance) regulations consider safe; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage#Separated_or... 48V is somewhat of a dinosaur from the days when you designed things with a 20% margin since that's what was cheaply attainable. Regular PoE is 54V these days (10% margin), and some more specific…

What's a commonly produced thing that's 48v? I don't know much about this subject. Is it most industrial type stuff or is there consumer tier products using it?

Basically the whole telco industry runs off 48V, and has for a very long time. You'd have a rectifier box that would take the AC and output 48V, and then everything would run from that.

A lot of the satellite and wireless equipment I've worked on has inherited that and runs off 48 too.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#287

Many comments here seem to be confusing the accessories circuit voltage with the electrical vehicle motor and drive system. The vehicle motors have a combined power output of 450KW which requires a high voltage 800V system or the wiring would be so heavy it would not be feasible. This spec appears to be the accessories circuit with Tesla pushing for a new 48V standard. That’s super smart because it immediately means…

Dumb question but why does deciding to run at a higher voltage decrease the amount of wiring necessary? And why not increase it even further then?

The reason to not keep going higher is purely practicality because stepping down bigger voltage gaps for lower voltage applications begins to become less efficient/more waste heat.

If you design 100v computers, monitor, headlights, seat adjustment motors, window/windshield motors, pumps, etc. you could cut these 48v wires in half again but if you end up stepping everything down anyway it loses its utility.

The safety rules about voltage and the human body are often poorly overstated, as is the addage that 'its the amps that kill you, not the volts.' in reality it takes a whole lot of both [0].

As further research, here[1] is styropyro touching 2 contacts which have more current than the largest bolts of lightning (enough to almost instantly vaporize a crowbar) with his bare hands, but because it is 12V it is not able to pass through him.

[0] https://youtu.be/BGD-oSwJv3E

[1] https://youtu.be/ywaTX-nLm6Y

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't use custom-designed vehicles? I'm used to snowplows being these massive, reinforced vehicles that look like they could take on a tank.

I haven't a clue what you're describing. Do you have a picture? Also: where do you live, and how much snow do you get?!

Northern Norway. But it isn’t snowing right now — and also I’m in Ireland — so can’t do.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#289
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. For safety, hybrids and electric vehicles physically disconnect the high-voltage battery from everything when it's off with massive relays. So you can end up in the somewhat stupid situation where your high-voltage battery is fully charged, but you can't do anything because the tiny 12v motorcycle battery is flat. Starting simply requires enough 12v current to close a relay, the amps going though the "jumper pins…

That describes the situation where the 12V battery is flat but the HV battery is charged. But what happens if the HV battery is flat on a non-plug in hybrid? Can it be charged from 12V?

Wouldn’t you just start the car if the HV was flat and the LV was charged?

If they’re both flat I agree, I’m curious what you do.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#290
post #167
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's greatest innovation is simply leadership. Everyone knew castings were the way to go, but noone did it. Now people like Volvo are doing them, and I expect a lot of others to do it as well. Everyone knew that 48V would be a big benefit, but noone did it. TBH, in a few years, we may be saying similar things about drive-by-wire without a mechanical backup. But it is too early to say definitively.

What everyone was waiting for was for Italians to make the huge casting press so that castings could be done in mass production at automaker margins.

Despite Tesla's boastings, large casting machines have existed before. Automotive use is the new part.
Post reply on HN