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The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

kiwihellenist.blogspot.com

281–290 of 298 posts

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#281

In Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, the word for camel is gamlo (ܓܐܡܠܐ) while the word for rope is gamla (ܓܐܡܠܥ). Mixing these up would be an easy mistake to make. Matthew and Luke both took some info from Mark but also took some info from the Q source and their own sources. Since all three have this same wording, it is likely the error came through Mark.

To use the expression "the language Jesus spoke" is to imply that a Jesus actually existed and said things quoted. But the best current scholarship today demonstrates persuasively that no walking, talking Jesus ever existed (never mind was executed extra-judicially). If any did, nothing he said found its way into the New Testament. Certainly, neither Paul writing in the 50s, nor the Roman church elders who wrote 1 Cl…

Your reply is flagged and dead for obvious reasons.

Why would anyone watch a YouTube video and then proceed to the literature? Why not just read the literature? This sounds an awful lot like "dOiNg YoUr OwN rEsEaRcH" instead of "reading" (which, of course, is why your reply is flagged and dead).

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#282
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, Greek, English, etc. all have very similar words for camel/gimel/gamal/etc. (The Greek letter Gamma and the Hebrew/Phoenician letter Gimel derive from a drawing of a camel's head. Though, it's probably originally derives from a drawing of a boomerang-like hunting stick with a rhyming name in Demotic, and "throwing-stick" probably got switched to "camel" when the Phoenicians adap…

Prepare yourself: the entire canon was equally made up from whole cloth, right from the beginning. The rope/camel line is neither more nor less made-up than the rest; it was just made up a bit later. Notice though that the anonymous author of "John" appears to have tried to scrub it in the early/mid second century. It was apparently already a troublesome image by that time.

> Prepare yourself: the entire canon was equally made up from whole cloth, right from the beginning.

The fainting hypothesis seems much more likely than an intentional fraud.

Given the original leaders initially successfully scattered to the wind, then later returned to Jerusalem, and continued to travel the empire despite being slowly hunted down, tortured and executed by the Roman government over the next few decades, it seems they genuinely believed they were serving some grand purpose beyond themselves. They were clearly mobile, and word clearly got around they were being hunted. It would have been a much easier life for any of them to settle and hide in any one of scattered corners of the empire they visited rather than attempting to start churches there.

Especially after word got 'round that the first few had been tortured and executed, I'd expect any intentional fraudsters to just melt away into the backwater corners of the empire.

If they were going to make things up, you'd think they'd have made at least one of the disciples brave and smart. (To a man, they all come across as more than a bit dense and cowardly.) At a minimum, you'd think they would have made the first pope (Cephas/Peter) much less foolishly impulsive, and removed the several incidents where he tried to correct Jesus.

If you were making it up from whole cloth, you'd also have at least one of the disciples faithfully hang out at the tomb waiting for the resurrection, rather than having a group of women (considered hysterical unreliable witnesses) be the ones to discover the resurrection. Failing that, you'd expect at least one of the disciples to say "ah, of course" to the women, rather than (to a man) accuse them of hallucination.

Instead, with the official story, the one good leader is gone from the earth just as the story is getting going, and the remaining leaders are all poor choices.

A more plausible explanation is that one of the many charismatic anti-establishment nomadic preachers of the day assembled a ragtag bunch of illiterate fishermen, outcast Roman collaborators, etc. He starts to get some fame, it goes to his head and he gets a bit too anti-establishment, especially anti-priest. The priests convince the occupying Romans that they better execute him for sedition before he raises a rebel army. After his arrest and execution, his ragtag bunch flee Jerusalem and scatter. It turns out that against one-in-a-million odds, this one guy faints and survives crucifixion, wakes up a few days later, and wanders off to find his followers. The women left behind to do the grunge work discover the empty tomb, word gets 'round the small community, and the disciples trickle back into Jerusalem. The illiterate former cowards set out spreading the message. The leader eventually succumbs to his wounds a few weeks or months later, but his followers rationalize this just as his way of going back to heaven after making his point by coming back from crucifixion. They hide away the body to protect it from the Romans as they patiently await his second resurrection. (Or maybe the leader counted his blessings having survived execution and himself melted away into the backwaters of the empire without telling anyone.) As it was taking longer than they expected for Jesus to come back a second time, they later started a collection of sayings in the original Aramaic (the Q document hypothesis). At some point, a scribe marginally literate in Koine Greek tooks down Mark's version of events. Later on, other scribes working from these sources, passed oral history, and perhaps direct access to the disciples, wrote down a few more histories in Koine Greek. At some point, a physician (perhaps a freed slave, formerly belonging to a relative of Paul's) traveling with Paul tried to collect a proper history of events, citing names and locations of eyewitnesses.

Paul makes note of the portions of his letters that he's writing out with his own hand rather than dictating to a Greek-literate scribe. So, it seems his audience expected even most of his writings to be through a scribe rather than directly written by him, despite him being literate in Greek. Presumably early Christians would have similarly been un-surprised that scribes were involved in writing Greek accounts for illiterate Aramaic-speaking fishermen.

In any case, a mildly competent fraudster would have set himself or a collaborator up as the wise and brave hero, and would have vanished when it became clear that at best the leaders were going to spend decades on the run with only the clothes on their backs.

Being mistaken about what they witnessed seems much more likely than an intentional fraud.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, at least in "modern" writing. The problem I have with that claim is that the phrasing "eye of a needle" appears in Talmudic writings that predate the NT, so the idea itself likely predates that, and other creatures (elephants) have been used instead of camels. Granted, this is just hair-splitting, but I would strongly suspect its use dates much earlier.

There are no Talmudic manuscripts that predate the NT. There is a reasonable inference that much of what is in them does, but there is no guessing which bits those are.

Ah interesting, thanks! I didn't realize the only surviving manuscripts for which we have evidence date approximately to the time range of the MT. Whereas the Sinaiticus majuscule is easily 2-4 centuries earlier. Still, I would expect the idiom was well-established by the first century.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#284
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prepare yourself: the entire canon was equally made up from whole cloth, right from the beginning. The rope/camel line is neither more nor less made-up than the rest; it was just made up a bit later. Notice though that the anonymous author of "John" appears to have tried to scrub it in the early/mid second century. It was apparently already a troublesome image by that time.

> Prepare yourself: the entire canon was equally made up from whole cloth, right from the beginning. The fainting hypothesis seems much more likely than an intentional fraud. Given the original leaders initially successfully scattered to the wind, then later returned to Jerusalem, and continued to travel the empire despite being slowly hunted down, tortured and executed by the Roman government over the next few decad…

Plenty of people have faced the risk of persecution, torture and death for fallacious and fraudulent beliefs sincerely held.

Nevertheless, it remains the case that Christianity began with a diverse multitude of often mutually contradicting schools of thought and far more than four Gospels, all written decades if not centuries after the death of Jesus, about whom we know nothing beyond a scholarly consensus that a person existed upon whom the religion is based, supernatural claims notwithstanding. We certainly have not a single word or teaching that can be directly attributed to Jesus, or the apostles. Whether one considers that "intentional fraud" or simply religion and folklore in its natural state is up for interpretation.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#285
post #284
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prepare yourself: the entire canon was equally made up from whole cloth, right from the beginning. The fainting hypothesis seems much more likely than an intentional fraud. Given the original leaders initially successfully scattered to the wind, then later returned to Jerusalem, and continued to travel the empire despite being slowly hunted down, tortured and executed by the Roman government over the next few decad…

Plenty of people have faced the risk of persecution, torture and death for fallacious and fraudulent beliefs sincerely held. Nevertheless, it remains the case that Christianity began with a diverse multitude of often mutually contradicting schools of thought and far more than four Gospels, all written decades if not centuries after the death of Jesus, about whom we know nothing beyond a scholarly consensus that a per…

Sure. My point is just that "whole cloth" fabrication "right from the beginning" is far too simple an explanation. Anyone fabricating from whole cloth would have made the facts much less inconvenient. Anyone knowing they were making things up would have given up rather than spend decades on the run as reports of the torture and execution of their co-conspirators trickled in.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Without knowing the expression, “camel through a needle’s eye” sounds a bit fanciful, like there must be some sort of fairy-tale exception or trick to make it work But isn't that the whole point?

Seems like he’s telling the guy to sell all his stuff and give it away, or bugger off.

He's not, not really. This is neither directed at the guy nor is it all that fanciful. To understand it you do need to read it very carefully, though, this is kind of an "intellectual exercise" bit from Mark in my view. Sorry, this will be a long comment.

So the rich man asks Jesus for how to inherit eternal life, and he says "you know what to do," and the man says "... but I've already been doing that." Jesus does not contradict him by pointing out any broken commandments. So if you read carefully, as far as that first part of the exchange goes down, Jesus has promised that this man merely has to keep firm with these commandments and he will inherit eternal life.

But, this man has already been doing what he's supposed to be doing, and somehow he's still here asking Jesus to help him out. The careful reading is that the rich man has a conflicted, uncertain heart. He has been promised eternal life but wants the certainty that Jesus is correct. And Jesus then "loves him" and offers him a way to get precisely that certainty, basically saying "leave everything behind and follow me... You want the proof that I am who I say I am and when I promise that you have eternal life, you can be sure of that promise? The only way is to live with me for a long time, see the masses healed, see the sacrifice that I am about to make for you on the cross, and then you will have this certainty."

The selling of stuff has two functions that the text calls out here, the first is to "give the proceeds to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven," notice that this does not speak directly about inheriting the kingdom, Jesus already covered that part. This is about getting even greater rewards and celebration once you get into the kingdom, because you took care of the poor and needy in this life and that will be part of your legacy. And the second is "then come, follow me." The problem in the last part is that the property is an obstacle to following Jesus, it is that this guy can't leave his property behind without neglecting it, or else he's going to have to leave Jesus later to make sure that the fields are being plowed and the sheep are grazing and whatever else his property is doing for him. Property implies responsibility, Jesus is asking him to lay down all his other responsibilities if he wants to become a follower and have the certainty that he wants to achieve.

So Jesus doesn't say to bugger off, he says precisely the opposite, to not bugger off... and then the guy buggers off anyway! It's a theme in Mark that usually when Jesus or an angel tells someone to do something, they do the exact opposite. "Go and proclaim the good news! ... and the women didn't tell anybody." This is one of those cases. "Stay with me, I'll give you the certainty you crave" and he just goes off upset.

At this point he "went away," he's not the recipient of the camel/eye-of-the-needle saying, which is addressed to Jesus's disciples, almost exasperatedly.

Jesus says of this situation, where the man goes away grieving because of his possessions, "How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" And the disciples are "perplexed," to which Jesus first broadens to "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!" (some texts add "for those who trust in riches" but I think that was not original here). And then he targets the camel/eye-of-the-needle analogy specifically at the rich.

If you understand all of this context then the camel thing makes sense, he literally has to shed all of this extra body-weight -- the responsibility, the worry, the misinterpretations when even a hint of danger towards your carefully curated nest egg presents itself -- to get the flexibility and finesse needed to just do the right thing and follow where Jesus leads him. It's not directly about "sell all of your stuff and give it away or bugger off", the careful reading is that it's about "stop lugging all of this dead weight around, because you can't take it with you anyway when you die and your soul passes through that tiniest of gates. If you're attached to all this baggage you won't be able to make it."

This is probably related to several mystical interpretations of Jesus's own ministry on Earth being related to a process of "self-emptying" but this comment is already way way too long.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#287

I don't buy the idea that changing camel to rope is about pleasing rich people, because a rope can still nowhere near get through the eye of a needle. But a rope is qualitatively the same kind of thing as a thread; so if camel is the right word, the message is that what gets into the kingdom of God is a whole different kind of thing than money.

I agree! Where this argument pops up is through the modern myth that "eye of a needle" was a reference to a particular gate in Jerusalem (or something similar; there are different variants of this claim). If this were true, then THAT would turn the passage from an impossibility to something that's rather exceedingly difficult , thus pleasing rich people. Rope versus camel doesn't dramatically change the outcome as mu…

the version of the eye of the needle being a particular gate in Jerusalem that I heard is that it was a short entrance. so a camel could conceivably go through it, but you would have to take off any provisions it is packing and the camel would have to kneel down to get through. Which I think would square with other teachings of Jesus, which is that a man CAN get into heaven by humbling himself (kneeling) and casting off his worldly possessions first.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#288
post #276
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but none of those had happened yet at the time that this story is nominally set in that said, if a dude is going around knocking over tables in the temple, proclaiming himself the king of israel (and in most versions also the sole begotten son of god himself), telling people influential religious authorities have everything backwards, supposedly raising the dead, telling rich people to give away all their posses…

> yeah but none of those had happened yet at the time that this story is nominally set in The gospels were written later, by disciples. Of course they would showcase the messages from Jesus that were most relevant to the people then. This doesn't require any backwards causation, or even distorting any messages, they just have to showcase the sayings that are most relevant there & then when they're writing them down.…

The gospels were not, in fact, written by disciples. They were all written well after any disciples would have died.

But we know how they were written. Whoever wrote "Mark" made up things for his Jesus to say based on Paul's opinions, cribbing plot elements liberally from the Septuagint and from Homer. "Matthew" cribbed from Mark and made up whatever he liked. Luke cribbed from Mark and Matthew, and made up more stuff. John did a full-on rewrite cribbing from Mark, Matthew, and Luke for theme and plot.

If there was a living, breathing Jesus, we have no hint of anything he said while he lived. Certainly Paul writing in the 50s and the authors of 1 Clement writing in the 60s never heard of any Jesus having said anything they found meaningful enough to mention. Paul is very clear that every single thing he knew about Jesus came from ancient scripture and visions, period. 1 Peter also offers no hint that he ever met a live Jesus.

None of the early 2nd & 3rd century Christian writers, Ignatius, Justin, Origen, etc. had ever heard of Nero slaughtering Christians. Pliny the Younger, who had a personal copy of his uncle Pliny's detailed history of Nero's reign, and spent his life in the justice system, also had no clue about anybody executing Christians for anything but illegal assembly. So the best evidence says that the early Roman persecutions were forged later.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#289
post #284
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prepare yourself: the entire canon was equally made up from whole cloth, right from the beginning. The fainting hypothesis seems much more likely than an intentional fraud. Given the original leaders initially successfully scattered to the wind, then later returned to Jerusalem, and continued to travel the empire despite being slowly hunted down, tortured and executed by the Roman government over the next few decad…

Plenty of people have faced the risk of persecution, torture and death for fallacious and fraudulent beliefs sincerely held. Nevertheless, it remains the case that Christianity began with a diverse multitude of often mutually contradicting schools of thought and far more than four Gospels, all written decades if not centuries after the death of Jesus, about whom we know nothing beyond a scholarly consensus that a per…

And the "scholarly consensus" is based on phantoms and will-o-the-wisps that evaporate upon examination. The scholarly consensus among scholars who have actually examined the evidence in detail and published under peer review is unanimous that he most likely did not exist; and that if such a one did, nothing written in gospels/acts describes anything any actual person did or said.

Wholesale fabrication was the normal mode of production for religious literature at the time. Why would exactly four gospels, out of the many dozens, be different, that way? And why exactly those four and not some other? Their contradictions demonstrate their authors were not interested in accurately recording anything.

We need look no farther than 2 Peter to find dire warnings to pay no attention to the other Christians saying Jesus had not walked the Earth; so we know that was a common enough belief to worry its late forger. Of course anything they wrote was burnt in short order, along with them.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#290

This may be a bit un-orthodox, but I think there is some sense in Trinity if you interpret it properly: "Father" is the concrete DNA that creates each of us. "Son" is each individual that manifests that DNA. "Holy Ghost" is the whole INFORMATION in the DNA-population which gives rise to different concrete DNA strands. They are all manifestations of the same thing.

You're trying to find a contrived scientific notion of trinitarianism, which is a belief that is built out of the long history of Judaism and Christianity. How does this make any sense? If you don't believe Jesus was an actual person, or that God the Father gave stone tablets to Moses, what does the trinity even mean to you? And if you do believe in these things, how is "DNA" a satisfying explanation for the Father w…

Easy. The Son has to die, meaning every human individual must die because ONLY that way the evolution of DNA can proceed. DNA can "go to heaven", meaning beyond the death of the individual, for future generations to live, and to repeat the same cycle.

DNA has a mechanism for aging, meaning we really die because of it, not in spite of it. The Aging has been built in (= has evolved as a trait) because it allows the species to evolve when older generations leave room for newer ones.

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