What the post implies about the article (which I haven't read) is that in some measurable way this increased attention results in children growing into functioning, balanced, effective, productive, balanced, adults whose presence and efforts contribute in a more positive way to their community... but this expected result is not mentioned. It is also implied by comparing it to "the West" where, of course, it is easy to find examples of today's youth behaving selfishly, destructively, and self-centeredly. But looking at the accompanying image... well, there doesn't seem to be many opportunities for deviant behaviour in the middle of the jungle! I will eventually read the article, in which I'm expecting to find that these people live longer, assert more confidence, happiness and contentment, within peaceful and harmonious communities (since _everyone_ has had 15 hours of care growing up).
The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
281–290 of 325 posts
Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#282Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
And I'm very happy for you. However, what I'm arguing is not "having children makes me happy." It's "having children is above every other kind of happiness." Think about that for a second. What does that statement say to a person without children? To me, I hear that if you don't have children you're literally wasting your life. It's a denial of every other thing people find joy in. Why would you say that? I can only…
Because of course it is impossible that they are genuinely describing their personal experience where raising children has brought them fulfillment and meaning beyond anything else they have ever done, right? I think the main communication barrier between childless people and parents is that it's an experience far removed from anything else we do in our lives, so it is very difficult to grasp if you haven't been ther…
It is fine to be contend with having kids. It is pretentious to claim that everyone without kids hasn't achieved supreme humanhood. Both sides cant really know how the alternative would have felt like. If you have kids, you cant magically unhave kids and see how your life would have developed. And if you have no kids, you can't magically swipe through your alternative timeline either. So what is the point of claiming superiority over the other sides position?
Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, parenthood is intense, both both ways. It intensifies the highs and the lows. There's more strain and there's more joy. And there's a lot less strain when moving out of nuclear family structures. It all becomes easier for the children and the parents.
Can you elaborate? Curious how the stress profile differs in alternative family structures.
i'm living with two other families in a house (separate apartments). it lifts the hyper dependency of children on their parents and creates more room to attend to needs for both adults and children. it also makes it possible to stack many things, like grocery shopping or cooking (one person cooking for 12 people does not require three times as much time as cooking for four people). plus, there's usually always other adults at the house that you can hang out with plus many other kids for your kids to play with, so less stress with playdates etc.
Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you really have an objective opinion until you experience both sides? I suspect it isn't the parents that are lying to themselves...
You can't have an objective opinion after experiencing both sides either. A child is a life long decision. You don't get to say "oh I was wrong" after a couple years.
> You don't get to say "oh I was wrong" after a couple years.
Parents leaving their partner and their child behind isn't unheard of. Even women sometimes do so. Sometimes, children end up at the grandparents, and the woman tries to start over. Your claim seems to come from an idealized world.
Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, parenthood is intense, both both ways. It intensifies the highs and the lows. There's more strain and there's more joy. And there's a lot less strain when moving out of nuclear family structures. It all becomes easier for the children and the parents.
I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.
i didn't mean to generalize in what i said, but i see that the way i framed it makes it easy to understand that way.
i totally think that for some people having children would definitely not make them more happy, possibly many. it really depends on what gives you meaning, joy (obviously) and i think to a significant extent the setup within which you are having children. before i moved into this setup with the other families parenthood was significantly less joyful for me.
privilege is also a big factor. how much education and access to resources do you have so that you have the option to choose to work less than full-time for example?
Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes those free loading kids need to be paying their mothers for all the labor they provide.
Having kids is a benefit to society. Even though nobody has kids "for the greater good", it still is in everyone's interest that there is a strong upcoming generation. I think it's not unreasonable for a society to pay parents who decide to stay at home during the first years for their efforts, if only to make having kids sufficiently attractive. Lots of people just can't afford to stay home and capitalism makes it h…
This is where theory and practice collide. In theory, society should pay parents. In practice, paying parents results in incentivizing the people you do not want being parents into having more kids.
What society really wants is to incentivize good parents to have kids, but that is nowhere near possible to measure and implement.
Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
This stance strikes me as odd. Every parent was once a non-parent, and therefore can compare their own experience before and after. I'm sure parents are a little (intentionally) delusional at times, nobody wants to seem like a 'bad' or 'uncaring' parent. But to assume that the extreme majority of parents are lying about enjoying an experience that they've been evolutionarily primed for seems like flat-earth level rea…
My issue is not with the fact that some parents are happy with their decision. My issue is the implication that the joy of parenthood is above every other joy. For comparison, you don't see programmers claiming the joy of programming is superior to all other jobs. Mountaineers don't claim that you haven't enjoyed life unless you climb mountains. Why? Because those things are obviously joyful, but not accessible to ev…
The reason is quite straightforward. The survival of the human species depends on it being this way.
Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.
I don't think the commenter is saying you can't be happy without children, but it's a kind of experience that you either have or you don't, and it's hard to understand if you never had children. I'll add some context below in case you're interested in hearing about my own perspective. I was pretty darn happy as someone who got to go read a book each weekend at a coffee shop and workout 3x per week. I eventually had a…
>but it's a kind of experience that you either have or you don't, and it's hard to understand if you never had children.
this kind of mention is only ever asymmetrical -- generally in the direction you mentioned -- but i'd like to mention that being a childless adult with a long term relationship (or not) is also a unique perspective that very young parents / couples will never experience.
I had plenty of friends in school that mothered/fathered children at the age of 14-17 -- they won't get to experience my life, either -- they were busy with trying to provide for a child.
Both experiences are equally valid and unique, but for some reason we only ever speak about the one side of the coin 'missing out', as if the parents can just sort of surmise what they missed out by having a child; I'm sure that's not the case, just am i'm sure I could never understand what having a child is like -- I just wish there was a bit more understanding from the other side of the aisle that any perspective unlike your own is unique in its' own right.
Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because of course it is impossible that they are genuinely describing their personal experience where raising children has brought them fulfillment and meaning beyond anything else they have ever done, right? I think the main communication barrier between childless people and parents is that it's an experience far removed from anything else we do in our lives, so it is very difficult to grasp if you haven't been ther…
It is fine to be contend with having kids. It is pretentious to claim that everyone without kids hasn't achieved supreme humanhood. Both sides cant really know how the alternative would have felt like. If you have kids, you cant magically unhave kids and see how your life would have developed. And if you have no kids, you can't magically swipe through your alternative timeline either. So what is the point of claiming…
> It is pretentious to claim that everyone without kids hasn't achieved supreme humanhood.
That would be pretentious to make such a claim. But I have not seen a claim like that be made in this conversation thread.
People have expressed having children has enriched their own lives. That doesn’t mean you can’t enrich your life without children, nor does it mean literally everyone with children feels enriched.