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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#281

Post by wpietri »

sp332 wrote: post #262
wpietri wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is an analogy not a comparison? E.g.: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogy http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy Also, startups may have unique cultural requirements, but putting up with a hostile work environment is not one of them. Not under US law, anyhow.

I meant definition 5, which apparently is not as popular as I thought. e.g. Peanuts are to elephants as bananas are to monkeys. Peanuts are not being compared to bananas, and elephants are not being compared to monkeys. The workplace was not being compared to a frat house. What's being compared is the decision a person would make about those environments: if you don't like it, don't join.

I'm not sure that helps.

If the comparison is between my reaction to some behavior in a frat house I just walked into versus my reaction to some behavior at my company, then my reaction/decision process falls out of the equation. Then the plausible comparisons I can see are: A) frat house party workplace, B) some random place place I am committed to, or C) private club place of employment.

I'm pretty sure he meant A, as B and C don't make much sense for his argument.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#282

Post by Cushman »

rayiner wrote: post #278
Cushman wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, but not really what I'm talking about-- I don't mean mocking a person in particular, but the sort of jokes one might tell about men which are funny because all men are child molesters (but it's not offensive because of course I know all men aren't child molesters).

The jokes I mentioned are funny because it alludes to men being rapists and child molesters. E.g. the joke about me abusing my girlfriend wouldn't be funny if there wasn't the stereotype of men as abusers.

I get that, but I don't think you see the distinction I'm making, and it's pretty important.

The defining characteristic of privilege is not necessarily that you are judged more favorably, but that you are judged on the basis of your behavior, rather than on the basis of your group membership.

The situations you point out are about mocking behavior, not groups. Your friend said something about a young girl, so you make fun of him for being a pedophile. Your girlfriend happens to have a black eye, so you get jokingly accused of abusing her. The humor is rooted in your specific circumstance rather than in prejudice. Yes, they are only funny because the stereotypes exist, but they are still jokes about the individual rather than the stereotype.

Contrast this with a "joke" like, just off the top of my head:

  Q: What do you call a man who hasn't raped anyone?
  A: A virgin.
...which is more the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#283

Post by wpietri »

Lockyy wrote: post #247
batista wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your deciding what is and isn't important for women to care about is a perfect example of privilege. What privilege exactly? The privilege of sharing my opinion on HN and getting down-voted for it? I thought "privilege" was a concept related to power, what happened to that notion? Women, like men, also care about BS. Non-issues, stupid issues, moral non-issues, religious hard-lines, the latest celeb gossip, some fad…

One thing that bothers me about any and all up-vote/down-vote systems is exactly what has happened to Batista. He expresses an opinion that is contrary to what other people are saying and he gets down-voted into oblivion. This just feeds into the creation of a culture bubble and never lets anyone in the communities views get challenged. As a side note, I would like to clarify that my view on the issue is: A) Not rele…

The interface design problem here is that people are trying to express two things with one button: A) I disagree strongly, and B) that is a poor contribution to the discussion.

Personally, I'm going with both A and B for Batista. Some people come to a sexism discussion like fundies come to an evolution discussion. The point isn't to learn something and perhaps come away with a new view. It's to argue until the other people go find something better to do, so that the arguer can feel victorious and avoid having their bubble punctured.

When Batista jumped in with a standard technique for derailing the discussion, I suspected he was not interested in actual discussion. From his further replies, I'm sure of it. Life's too short to waste time talking with people like that. And if he's not at a discussion site to have an actual discussion, downvoting seems entirely reasonable to me.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#284

Post by mkramlich »

I hereby move that all further article submissions focused on gender roles or "sexism" be banned from HN. They aren't intellectually interesting, they aren't productive, they tend to bring out the worst in terms of quality of discussion. Yes, I know some of you may disagree with me, but that does not make me evil or less enlightened than you are, so spare me the downvotes. For those of you that do agree with me, I recommend we all start flagging any such articles we do see. Since we're not allowed to downvote articles directly. Sound good? Let's act.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#286

Post by wpietri »

rayiner wrote: post #278
Cushman wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, but not really what I'm talking about-- I don't mean mocking a person in particular, but the sort of jokes one might tell about men which are funny because all men are child molesters (but it's not offensive because of course I know all men aren't child molesters).

The jokes I mentioned are funny because it alludes to men being rapists and child molesters. E.g. the joke about me abusing my girlfriend wouldn't be funny if there wasn't the stereotype of men as abusers.

I'm not seeing it yet. I think "most abusers of women are men" is very different than "most men are abusers of women".

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#287

Post by wpietri »

bmelton wrote: post #248
JulianMorrison wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not okay because it (1) assumes a false equivalence - the actual counts are more like "a wrong versus a hundred million wrongs" (2) it puts a burden on the victim of sexism to be perfect, while putting no such burden on the sexists (3) it's a variation on victim-blaming.

I knew when I posted that comment that it would get downvoted, but I honestly don't know when or how "They're bugging me so I'm going to 'take the high road' and bug them back" became acceptable behavior. If it was something my daughter had done, she'd be in trouble for it, but because she has somehow appealed to the vigilante in everyone, while trumpeting the almighty PC agenda of sexism, she's apparently justified…

So if I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that a bot posting feminist quotes is as offensive to guys as a bot posting sexist jokes is to women?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#288

Post by wpietri »

mkramlich wrote: post #284

I hereby move that all further article submissions focused on gender roles or "sexism" be banned from HN. They aren't intellectually interesting, they aren't productive, they tend to bring out the worst in terms of quality of discussion. Yes, I know some of you may disagree with me, but that does not make me evil or less enlightened than you are, so spare me the downvotes. For those of you that do agree with me, I re…

Wow.

Disagreeing doesn't make you evil. Trying form a cabal to keep people from talking about and fixing an inequity that favors you sure does, though.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#290

Post by bmelton »

wpietri wrote: post #287
bmelton wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew when I posted that comment that it would get downvoted, but I honestly don't know when or how "They're bugging me so I'm going to 'take the high road' and bug them back" became acceptable behavior. If it was something my daughter had done, she'd be in trouble for it, but because she has somehow appealed to the vigilante in everyone, while trumpeting the almighty PC agenda of sexism, she's apparently justified…

So if I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that a bot posting feminist quotes is as offensive to guys as a bot posting sexist jokes is to women?

In particular, what I'm saying is that "fighting fire with fire" is a far cry from "taking the high road."

In another comment, oskarth posits that she "did everything right" by not going to her supervisor, so as to avoid "turning it into drama".

How does this not turn it into drama? Isn't that what supervisors are for? I understand the inclination to avoid being the snitch, but all this does is set her up for equally serious rebukement by management if and when it does get escalated there, and prevents her from having a leg to stand on.

Whether or not it is as offensive as the other, I think we all know that it was intended to be at least as annoying.

What she's effectively done is the digital equivalent to "I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you." while holding her finger one inch from the face of her co-workers. That's fine and dandy, but she doesn't get to respond like a two year old and also expect me to think highly of her actions.

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