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Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

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Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#281

Post by rayiner »

prewett wrote: post #262
rayiner wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit I hadn’t read the cert petition and hasn’t seen the quotes. I never believed the assertion that “all white people are racist” because I honestly thought the white people around me didn’t “see race.” This has been extremely eye-opening.

"All white people are racist" is a racist statement itself. And the Harvard admissions department is not representative of "white people".

I'm referring to that statement because it's something people say, hence the quotes. I'm not saying I agree with its full scope now. But I get where it's coming from more than I did before.

While university admissions people aren't representative of white people, they're in the class of people I had always assumed didn't see people in terms of race. I knew affirmative action was a thing, but I kind of assumed it was a mathematical, maybe computerized process. I didn't realize they were sifting through applications saying "oh, here's a hispanic, and that one's a black kid, shoot this one's an asian."

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#282

Post by less_less »

laidoffamazon wrote: post #203
less_less wrote: post #163

I agree that there are many aspects of how elite universities work that are not what's best for society. I don't think this is the best thinkpiece on it though. One small thing that jumped out at me is the bit about "we don't have to sort kids at 18, because most colleges teach the same stuff". To support this point, the author compared Harvard Math 1a to SIUE Math 150. This is a bad comparison, because these are int…

> Having taken math courses for math majors at both an Ivy school and a decent non-Ivy, it is my experience that while they teach roughly the same subjects, they do not teach the same things within those subjects, nor at the same pace, nor to the same level of rigor. Nor are the students in those classes equally good at math. So, while sorting those students can and does contribute to injustice (especially with the a…

> OK, and? How does this change anything? You have to be a PhD to be a mathematician anyway.

I don't understand your objection. Comprehensive math training is useful in areas other than academic research math, and it's not like PhD programs erase or overwrite all math instruction from before you entered that program.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#283

Post by sixstringtheory »

lapcat wrote: post #276
amluto wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I’m reading the text of the article as written. It says: “Harvard would still be an organization designed to reduce meritocracy…” “Harvard exists to make society less meritocratic” These are statements about Harvard’s purpose or intent, not about its effect. And I think it’s more likely that the original intent, as well and the present intent of those involved, is to foster meritocracy: admit the best students (f…

> These are statements about Harvard’s purpose or intent, not about its effect. Yes, the current purpose or intent. Harvard was established 387 years ago; what was its original purpose or intent? I don't know. In fact, I don't care. It's not relevant to the current argument. Institutions change over time, and we're talking about hundreds of years at Harvard.

> the current purpose or intent

… is to make society less meritocratic? Where’s the evidence that this is what the institution is currently driving at as its mission? Versus this being an emergent effect, subjectively?

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#284

Post by Xeoncross »

edgyquant wrote: post #246
dublinben wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now imagine how much even more safe you’d all be if you were riding on a train, and those youths were harmlessly racing each other on bikes on a nearby separated bike path.

Now imagine how much safer you’d all be if you stayed home and never went anywhere. This is a ridiculously regressive argument.

I'm all for both of these actually.

However, until utopia happens and we don't have to use cars or commute I'm thankful for the little improvements.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#285

Post by toastercat »

glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

I'm not sure if you didn't read the article, skimmed it, or are mis-representing it on purpose.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#287

Post by commandlinefan »

BearOso wrote: post #144
commandlinefan wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "lets all be poor" As the parent of two exceptionally-achieving children who were rejected from the "elite" colleges - I've become a lot more sympathetic to the mindset behind this line of thinking. My kids literally couldn't have done more or tried harder - since kindergarten - than they did. They both graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, scored in the top 99% of the SAT, did sports, did clubs, volunteered,…

I totally agree that the legacy and nepotism needs to be dropped. But there's some caveats to consider: * It's partly about where your kids graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, etc. I was considered "gifted" in my district, but I would be below average in the greater scheme of things. * Top 99% of SAT is nothing. I read somewhere that 60% of Ivy applicants have perfect scores. * It depends on the major they int…

> there's schools just as good, if not better, than the Ivies

You know that and I know that... I just wonder if HR knows that.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#288

Post by laidoffamazon »

ghaff wrote: post #273
laidoffamazon wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you will just have to make up for it somehow. I'm 27 and make ~$300k a year. When or even how can I make up for it? I'm clearly behind the people at Ivy+ schools right now.

>I'm 27 and make ~$300k a year. When or even how can I make up for it? I'm clearly behind the people at Ivy+ schools right now. I'd like to believe this is sarcasm but it probably isn't.

It's not sarcasm. I'm told that I'm lesser because I didn't get into any top schools or "deserve" the respect they get - clearly I'm doing worse than Ivy+ folks.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#289

Post by commandlinefan »

eastbound wrote: post #151
commandlinefan wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "lets all be poor" As the parent of two exceptionally-achieving children who were rejected from the "elite" colleges - I've become a lot more sympathetic to the mindset behind this line of thinking. My kids literally couldn't have done more or tried harder - since kindergarten - than they did. They both graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, scored in the top 99% of the SAT, did sports, did clubs, volunteered,…

First, I’m sorry for your children. Second, maybe we overproduce good students. Either the curriculum is too easy (imagine compared to Chinese high schools). Either everyone wants to be in the tertiary sector and society doesn’t need so many, and rejects people who are perfectly fit, randomly without fairness. Third, were they victim of white discrimination?

> were they victim of white discrimination?

Although it looks like you were downvoted for suggesting such a thing exists, I actually do believe that it happens - but in their case no, they're actually hispanic.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#290

Post by laidoffamazon »

less_less wrote: post #282
laidoffamazon wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having taken math courses for math majors at both an Ivy school and a decent non-Ivy, it is my experience that while they teach roughly the same subjects, they do not teach the same things within those subjects, nor at the same pace, nor to the same level of rigor. Nor are the students in those classes equally good at math. So, while sorting those students can and does contribute to injustice (especially with the a…

> OK, and? How does this change anything? You have to be a PhD to be a mathematician anyway. I don't understand your objection. Comprehensive math training is useful in areas other than academic research math, and it's not like PhD programs erase or overwrite all math instruction from before you entered that program.

I don't think it matters at all, actually. Covering 10% less material in a real analysis class at Wayne State vs. MIT has basically no bearing on society, or even the students at either.
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