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TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

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Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#281

Post by justsomehnguy »

smoldesu wrote: post #279
cpursley wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shooting down the Chinese ballon and arming Ukraine with long range weapons aren't potentially acts of provocation against nuclear powers? Reverse the roles. American ballon. Mexico getting armed against the US by a foreign superpower and sworn enemy. Would the US tolerate those acts?

> Would the US tolerate those acts? Yes? What about their nuclear policy from the past half-century convinces you otherwise?

In the last 50 years US never had anything on their border.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#282

Post by logifail »

posterboy wrote: post #228
llm_nerd wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fab is for chips that are something along the lines of 4 generations old, and that's ignoring that they won't start manufacturing until 2027... This has absolutely nothing to do with AI or LLMs. Generally these are automation chips for machinery or vehicles. "Microsoft made him walk that one back real quick" This sounds like a weird fan fiction. OpenAI openly negotiates with EU governments. No one walked back any…

Suppose you need automation for machinery in a cutting edge fab, that would be much further in the future? They could ship from Taiwan, so the idea that this is a back up does not sound entirely wrong. Sounds like fan-fiction, too, true enough. AMD is already there and Intel is building in Lower Saxony. Must be something about the region, perhaps the chemistry since the Erzgebirge has a history in mining. Meisner Por…

> Must be something about the region [snip]

Following Occam's razor, perhaps it's that it's just cheaper?

"The monthly pay ranking of German states is headed by Hamburg with 3,619 euros, followed by Baden-Württemberg with 3,546 euros and Hesse with 3,494 euros. The lowest salaries are received by employees in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania with an average of 2,391 euros. Slightly more is earned in Thuringia with 2,459 euros and Saxony with 2,479 euros."[0]

[0] https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/business/pay-in-germany-...

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#283

Post by ToDougie »

exceptione wrote: post #261
cpursley wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is a bit off-topic, but the Biden admin hasn't done anything like that indeed. In fact, nuclear exchange is self-destruction. No one is stupid enough to do that, even Trump wouldn't be. So parent's remark is off. For chips to be blocked going to Germany doesn't thus require a nuclear exchange. You rather should think of smth like military aggression from China towards Taiwan.

Might want to take a peek at a map of Eastern Europe.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#284

Post by smoldesu »

justsomehnguy wrote: post #281
smoldesu wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would the US tolerate those acts? Yes? What about their nuclear policy from the past half-century convinces you otherwise?

In the last 50 years US never had anything on their border.

Even if they did, it wouldn't change much.

1. Nobody would launch nukes domestically, so moot point.

2. Using nukes internationally would be a faux-pas beyond fixing. Every modern, nuclear-equipped nation understands this.

3. The United States doesn't need nuclear weaponry to dispel invaders, or even to retaliate against foreign attacks. Their nuclear weapons exist to deter other nuclear superpowers from using their weapons for petty gain.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#285

Post by _Microft »

seeekr wrote: post #195
dav_Oz wrote: post #178

For those unfamiliar with the region (Saxony, Dresden): A registered association ( e.V. in German) bluntly named "Silicon Saxony e.V." (est. in 2000) with over 450 members headquartered in Dresden pretty much sums up the infrastructure and ambition.[0][1] As pointed out the process TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology (fabrication will begin in 2027) is not "cutting edge" b…

minor nitpick: "e.V." in Germany is "eingetragener Verein", "registered association" and is a form of association that's extremely common and use for all kinds of things, e.g. local sports groups, interest groups, etc, so "e.V." in and of itself doesn't have anything to do with industry, though as in the above case it can be used that way!

The Max-Planck-Society [0][1] is also an e.V. and they have a yearly budget in the order of 2.5B€ or so. e.V.s can be very diverse in their nature.

[0] (de) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max-Planck-Gesellschaft

[1] (en) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck_Society

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#286

Post by ckozlowski »

s_dev wrote: post #250
coryfklein wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In How Asia Works[0], they contrast how Malaysia tried to modernize by jumping straight to high-tech steel factoris with how South Korea modernized by starting small – basically by making shitty cars – then scaled their way up. Turns out the latter simply works much better. My take, if you want to have a bleeding edge semiconductor industry in your country, first start by trying to build a boring, vanilla, outdated s…

The car industry in Germany already makes a huge number of chips for cars -- they just aren't as sophisticated or as small as the ones made in Taiwan suitable for personal computers so by your own logic they have followed the South Korean model already.

I think the analogy might not fit here too well. While Germany hasn't had a current node fab in country for a while, they have in the recent past (AMD/Global Foundries Dresden comes to mind). I don't think it's at all like they're building an industry from scratch.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#287

Post by OO000oo »

mainframed wrote: post #257
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: does that mean there are no indian restaurants in Dresden?

There are. Why wouldn't there be? There are a lot of minorities in Germany, which (sadly have to) accept daily racism. Thankfully, at this point violence against minorities (~800 right extremists violent crimes in 2022 in whole Germany) is not as high such that people consider moving away. And if you get a job there and this is your ticket into immigration, probably a lot of people will accept this to get German citi…

> My hope (as a West German) is that investments like this, will increase East-Germany's economy such that they are finally equal in terms of economic wealth

Is this a bad joke? Is it possible that you actually don't comprehend the ramifications of eternal human labor trafficking?

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#288

Post by mytailorisrich »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #226
christkv wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is still doing it, and when they don’t the us applies pressure through its closest European Allies. The us is very much still involved in classic Cold War stuff in Europe. The Ukrainian war has been very good to American exports of arms and liquid gas.

> The Ukrainian war has been very good to American exports of arms By "exports", do you mean donations? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64656301

There's been plenty of sales as well.

For example, last year the US sold $6 billion-worth of Abrahams tanks to Poland. Overall, paid-for exports to Europe have exploded.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#289

Post by _Microft »

dav_Oz wrote: post #178

For those unfamiliar with the region (Saxony, Dresden): A registered association ( e.V. in German) bluntly named "Silicon Saxony e.V." (est. in 2000) with over 450 members headquartered in Dresden pretty much sums up the infrastructure and ambition.[0][1] As pointed out the process TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology (fabrication will begin in 2027) is not "cutting edge" b…

Wow, I didn't know that that many people were working in this industry there:

"Silicon Saxony is a registered industry association of nearly 300 companies in the microelectronics and related sectors in Saxony, Germany, with around 40,000 employees. Many, but not all, of those firms are situated in the north of Dresden. [...]

[T]he area and the union — in many aspects — represent the only meaningful European center of microelectronics.", excerpt from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Saxony

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#290

Post by pavlov »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #260
mainframed wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are. Why wouldn't there be? There are a lot of minorities in Germany, which (sadly have to) accept daily racism. Thankfully, at this point violence against minorities (~800 right extremists violent crimes in 2022 in whole Germany) is not as high such that people consider moving away. And if you get a job there and this is your ticket into immigration, probably a lot of people will accept this to get German citi…

>There are. Why wouldn't there be? Because he said Indians are attacked on the street in Dresden. If that's the case why would you move and open a restaurant there if you're Indian? Or was he exaggerating the issue?

There were 13,000 Jews in Leipzig in 1933. Surely antisemitism wasn’t a problem because so many of them chose to live there.

(In 1989 the city’s Jewish population was 30.)

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