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Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

reuters.com

281–290 of 379 posts

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'm not trying to argue for gold being a good store of value either, it might not be. But another reason why I would prefer to have gold is that people make use of gold to make jewelry and electronics, so that creates a demand that helps to prop up its value. The point I was making is that in a passive state, just sitting on a shelf, I believe that the cost of maintaining ownership of all the gold in the world i…

Your passive analogy doesn't work because Gold needs to be secured and defended, which requires energy or other people are going to steal it. Just like Bitcoin needs to be secured and defended with compute for at least new transactions. A 51% attack will allow you block new transactions or double spend coins you have, not spend or steal other people's coins on the ledger because you don't have the private keys for th…

Yes, and I believe that the total energy needed to secure and defend all the gold in the world is still much lower than the total energy needed to run the entire bitcoin network. I don't feel motivated to do a back of the envelope calculation to justify that claim though, so maybe we disagree on that point. Still, there is the material usage argument for gold that helps it maintain its value that bitcoin does not have going for it.

Even if a 51% attack only allows the attacker to double spend, that is stealing someone's coins, namely the coins of the party that you reversed the transaction on the first time you spent the coins. In addition, once people realized that double spends were occurring and were possible, it would cause a loss of confidence in the coin, causing a loss of perceived value, which then lowers the sale price (i.e. the "actual" value), meaning that the coin would not serving as a very good inflation resistant store of value.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#282

Okay, now that I have your attention, how about a new sort of crypto investment. Let me pitch you.. A privatized prison just for crypto scammers and bros. They could be the almost free hb1-labour, but with alot more entrepreneural spirit. Get coders, managers and advertisers at very reasonable prices. Payable even bitcoin or montero.

The (block)chain gang.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#283

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

In order for your analogy to hold, you can’t forget about the part where you constantly push the idea that trading Pokémon cards is a better way to make money than banking, manipulating the prices of cards and lying about how the cards are priced.

Guys like Mashinsky bad-mouthed banking nonstop and touted their exchanges as more equitable platforms to store and make money.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax thing is overrated. Equities have to be traded through a brokerage and that's the real death knell for crypto. If your dream is to be able to buy a pizza with bitcoin, having to do the transaction via your respective brokerages would not work.

That dream has been dead for years. BTC is all about investment now.

That's more true for bitcoin than for some other projects, but even bitcoin has the Lightning Network which they're attempting to use for payments using BTC.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#285
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

newspapers can't sell ads on a remote court document site which leads to a great business idea, run a mirror that republishes legal / government documents in a syndicated fashion with [your ad here]

I like that idea. A homepage that lists the top 20 stories of the day that are about a document that probably isn't actually linked to. Go to our site (www.readtheactualdocument.com) to see it -- and get served ads. Additive would be some highlighting and annotating of the document (as nytimes sometimes does) to point people to salient points.

100% of readers will not read the source document.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#286

Obligatory Matt Levine article on the topic: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-07-13/celsiu...

It probably makes me a shallow person, but the only financial news that I find worth reading (i.e. afterwards I understand things a little better) is Matt Levine's column.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SEC does indeed get involved with recovering money for victims of investment fraud. Source: me. The SEC recovered about a third of the money I unwittingly invested in a Ponzi scheme.

If you are willing to share: How did you end up getting tricked and how can other people avoid the same.

It was a pretty good scam. The scammer had a company that sold fractional profit shares in oil wells. Without getting too deep in the weeds, he sold the equivalent of more than 100%. He invested the proceeds of new investment in paying out old investors and buying new oil wells.

Eventually he ran out of new investor money and the scheme unraveled.

I don’t know how I would have caught it. The regulatory oversight in oil well finances is poor.

The guy was on the lam for a few months, then sentenced to 10 years in Federal prison. He then escaped and hasn’t been found.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#288

Would someone explain to me what the endgame of these fraudsters is? I mean, of course they are trying to get rich quick pulling these schemes but you would believe that they do it because they perceive that there is some sort of opportunity to cash out without inevitably going to prison some day, right? What is the thought process in the mind of these criminals when shit hits the fan? Maybe just hire very expensive…

I think the end game is something like making enough money such that doing some time would make it worth it, and we all know how white collar crime is punished. Of course they stash a lot of money so even after a lot of it is clawed back they keep enough.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#289

Would someone explain to me what the endgame of these fraudsters is? I mean, of course they are trying to get rich quick pulling these schemes but you would believe that they do it because they perceive that there is some sort of opportunity to cash out without inevitably going to prison some day, right? What is the thought process in the mind of these criminals when shit hits the fan? Maybe just hire very expensive…

All evidence from the people I know who have gone to work in that industry is that it's a mix of true believers, and 50% outright narcissistic sociopaths who know how to manipulate true believers.

And then about 20% of people who just think the whole thing is "nifty" and getting to write fancy software or build a business around it is kinda fun, and they paid lots, so whatever.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#290
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn’t techlead literally commit all the things Celsius CEO is charged for, with his Million Token?

He may or may not get justice in time. These things move slowly and the authorities have limited resources.

The proverb "The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine" comes to mind.

Not always and for anybody but surprisingly many people are caught long after the interest of the public moved elsewhere.

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