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Proof you can do hard things

blog.nateliason.com

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Re: Proof you can do hard things

#281

Post by kamaal »

constantcrying wrote: post #263
kamaal wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>But math reasoning really filters out people in a way nothing else does. Learning Math is just like learning a language, the issue is the script/alphabet/symbols used to communicate, its dictionary, its grammar are all complicated its hard for common people to get a grip on it. Almost all people can follow logical sequence of arguments provided they understand the language in which they are described. This language…

The language is the least relevant thing about learning mathematics. It is arbitrary and rooted in historical circumstance. Saying math is about the language is like saying programming is about learning syntax. It is entirely irrelevant, the meaning is what is important.

>>programming is about learning syntax.

It indeed is, how do you communicate meaning without words/symbols?

Make an attempt to reply to this very comment by any means apart from using words/symbols.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#282

Post by QuadmasterXLII »

For some small percentage of high schoolers who can learn calculus, that knowledge will be worth ~100k a year for 40 years- and worth far more than that for their bosses. We can’t tell in advance who is in that percent, so we hedge by teaching it to all of them.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#283

Post by kamaal »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #272
kamaal wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>But math reasoning really filters out people in a way nothing else does. Learning Math is just like learning a language, the issue is the script/alphabet/symbols used to communicate, its dictionary, its grammar are all complicated its hard for common people to get a grip on it. Almost all people can follow logical sequence of arguments provided they understand the language in which they are described. This language…

> Almost all people can follow logical sequence of arguments provided they understand the language in which they are described. No. I know people that have been explained repeatedly with absolute patience and love that correlation was not causality, with simple examples. They agree on the moment, but wait a week and they still mix it up again and again. That's one of the smallest and easiest logical concept to grasp,…

>>I know people that have been explained repeatedly with absolute patience and love that correlation was not causality, with simple examples. They agree on the moment, but wait a week and they still mix it up again and again.

You just proved to them correlation doesn't imply causation in some cases, but no amount of examples will be sufficient enough to prove that is the case in all the cases. This is exactly my point.

If they have seen cases where a cause was strong correlated with some data, so as far as they are concerned, at least in that case they were logically able to conclude there was some connection.

To prove your point, you have to in some way prove a total disconnect between the two(correlation and causation), until then you really haven't proven anything substantial to them. Note you will need some mathematical formulation to do it(Symbol manipulation), which is basically learning a new language from grounds up. It could be impossible. Hence my point.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#284

Post by kayodelycaon »

ethanbond wrote: post #222
roflyear wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never gotten anything out of discipline itself.

IMO the most disciplined thing to do is build systems that don't depend on discipline.

This is exactly what I do. "Discipline" in the traditional sense isn't an option. I have a severe impairment with executive function and can't do specific things at specific times.

So I gave up on that. I go with the flow of my brain. When I can, I build and shore up systems that will survive chaos and reduce my cognitive load. When I can't do plan A, hopefully I can manage plan B, C, or D.

This seems to work pretty well. I'm more reliable long-term when I allow myself to be unreliable day-to-day. :)

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#285

Post by TeMPOraL »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #212
DarkNova6 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does. Disagree. I say: Bad math teachers really filter out people in a way nothing else does. "Here is a list of rules which can be used in specific circumstances. I am not going to tell you why you would need them and the exam will feature several corner cases. Also, I will not provide any examples or detailed explanations because what would other peopl…

True. But even with the best teachers for every field, math or sport will filter out people way more harshly, and sooner, than any other field. You can smooth things out with quality teaching, but there is a human hardware limit, and you reach it sooner with those two. Many people don't like to hear it because their ego is bruised or because it goes against the idea that "everybody can do anything". This is wrong. Bi…

> You can smooth things out with quality teaching, but there is a human hardware limit, and you reach it sooner with those two.

Shmaybe. But I doubt many people ever approach it. What they hit is, instead, a "software lockout" - a limit of the kind that some hardware vendors (such as those making oscilloscopes or farming machines) put in their products, where the hardware is already there, but its capability is restricted in software, and you need to pay to have the restrictions lifted.

If you'd seen me as a kid, you'd say I am one of those people with rather low "hardware limit" when it comes to math. But then, when I was around 13, that limit suddenly shot up so high and so fast, it may as well have disappeared. What happened? I started to learn to code, with an intent to make videgames. Eventually I reached the point when I was trying to figure out how to rotate some sprites, and made a mental connection between what I want (understanding how to implement rotating images) and what I was taught at school (trigonometry). Immediately, math switched from being something I had to learn, and became something I wanted to learn. So, what you'd think was a severe hardware limit, was actually a purely software one - and it went away the moment I found the magic unlock code (which, in my case, was "find something that makes math seem relevant and exciting, instead of a bullshit chore").

And yes, I'll admit that I do have a hardware limit relevant here - most kids do well at math without having to find a motivational "cheat code", but people like me, with impaired executive functions, can't naturally power through bullshit, and need workarounds to keep up. But this is a different kind of limit. It's also one we're getting increasingly good at understanding, recognizing and overcoming, and it teaches us that what you see as hardware skill limit, may just be a software limit induced by another problem.

Or, in short, if someone told the twelve year old me the things you wrote here today, it would have derailed my life. Fortunately, nobody did, and this lazy and dumb-ish kid ended up handling undergrad-level math perfectly fine.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#286

Post by BiteCode_dev »

greatwave1 wrote: post #275
blitz_skull wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't go to the high school I went to. Some people, fundamentally, just cannot do math.

Was it a good school in a wealthy area? If not, what makes you confident that your peers were falling behind due to some sort of innate inability, instead of as a result of compounding poor teaching or other environmental factors?

Well, I have the same experience, and I went to 11 different schools, including rich and poor ones.

And I also got into teaching between dev gigs.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#287

Post by sourcecodeplz »

You take maths because it shapes your brain, it forces new neuron connections to be formed in the right side of your brain. Then you also have literature and arts for the left side.

The brain is like a muscle, if you don't train it, it wont grow AND you will basically be STUPID. That is it.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#288

Post by paulcole »

robertlagrant wrote: post #251
paulcole wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is never asked about any other school subject Are you kidding? Every tech-bro on the planet makes their disdain for literature, philosophy, etc. extremely well known.

It's hard to make out your actual point given it's couched in stereotype.

I don't think it's that hard.

But if it is, then my point is that people absolutely do make the same complaint about any subject they don't like being told to learn.

Tech bros (generally) don't like being told to learn about art. And non-tech bros (generally) don't like being told to learn math.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#289

Post by jameshart »

Of course, one thing a solid mathematical education will also give you is an appreciation that while ‘having passed AP Calculus’ implies ‘can do hard things’, that does not mean ‘having failed to take or complete AP Calculus’ implies ‘can’t do hard things’.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#290

Post by nborwankar »

DarkNova6 wrote: post #206
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because math is harder for most people. There is no difference between learning a name in history or in biology, or some workflow. But math reasoning really filters out people in a way nothing else does. All other topics just require memory and basic reasoning. Even physics mostly is hard because of math. And philosophy, mostly because of jargon and references. Otherwise, if you break it down, it's not that co…

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does. Disagree. I say: Bad math teachers really filter out people in a way nothing else does. "Here is a list of rules which can be used in specific circumstances. I am not going to tell you why you would need them and the exam will feature several corner cases. Also, I will not provide any examples or detailed explanations because what would other peopl…

Very interesting tgat you mention bad math teachers. I agree. During my teaching assistant stint during graduate studies in applied and pure math, I had one student who was failing. Talking to her I learned that a math teacher in high school had made her feel very stupid - she stopped learning. This happens more often than is recognized especially to girls but not just to girls.

I told her to come to office hours and I gave her problem sets to solve, first easy then progressively harder. As she got confidence that she could do this her demeanor in class changed and in the space of a month she went from failing to a B-

After this I started asking anyone who said they had math anxiety or did not like math if they had a bad math teacher they remembered. I have asked close to a hundred people this over the last 30+ years and invariably they not only remembered the name of said bad math teacher but also relived how they were told they were dumb and would never be good at math. They stopped learning at that point.

Nonetheless math is hard because it is not an evolutionary survival skill we developed. I say jokingly that math is an unnatural act. I am not a gifted math student but I like solving problems and I would just solve every problem in the book ploddingly and stubbornly. So I dont hate math and I am not in love with it either. It is a very powerful tool for problem solving and also gives you powerful analytical capability you can use in other places in life.

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