Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

old.reddit.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 420 posts

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#281

Post by jstarfish »

naet wrote: post #193
thrashh wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet it's 2 because OP said they used "admittedly obviously AI generated from the hands" and a lot of AI generation makes really funky hands that you have to fix because it looks so bad. So it sounds like OP slapped some half-assed generated images into a game and tried to submit it. Valve now can't really trust someone that does that to have done any due diligence.

The OP's only other reddit post says that they want to start a corporation to avoid associating their name with the game, which is a pretty big red flag to me. "I've been developing a game for a while now, and am near ready to release it on Steam. I'd prefer it not to be associated with my name (as in I'd prefer people googling my name and future employers being unable to find out i developed this game )."

Given the tech involved and allegations I agree with the others that this is a smut game, but shielding yourself with an LLC is a smart move for anybody doing anything controversial, commercially.

Ask Alex Jones...

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#283

Post by schroeding »

xk_id wrote: post #172
com2kid wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are also on the cusp of individual developers being able to produce works that used to take entire teams. I'm working on simulating a small town using Generative AI agents, schedules, social interactions, realistic reactions to outside events, dialogue between characters, the whole shebang. A year ago that wasn't an "after work side project". I just did a full launch on https://www.generativestorytelling.ai/ - a s…

> AIs are an obscene boost to what individuals can do. Depends what the individual is trying to do. Making memes? Blog spam? Sure. But for non-trivial content I haven’t seen an example that was compelling.

In this context: Generative ML models allow e.g. a single motivated writer with almost no budget to make a Visual Novel which they then could publish on Steam (before the policy change) for the world to see.

Write the script yourself, generate and curate 2D art assets, optionally generate and curate your OST / BGM, optionally generate and curate voice lines, put everything into Ren'Py. Done.

It's still very much not easy if you do not want to make shovelware, but it's possible now for a sole developer (or very small team) with no great artistic and musical talent.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#284

Post by permo-w »

MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #221
rngname22 wrote: post #14

This is just legal cover until such time as its possible to enforce no child exploitation imagery, no copyright stuff, etc. It doesn't matter if they are able to enforce it, Valve can use this policy as cover if they ever get sued. Don't overthink the motivation. They will not even have a bulletproof way to detect AI imagery as it evolves every single day as an arm's race and detection is a full-time job. Even a FAAN…

> They will not even have a bulletproof way to detect AI imagery as it evolves every single day as an arm's race and detection is a full-time job. Even a FAANG or a state actor would need to dedicate team(s) to detection technology and still have false negatives. Are people actually trying to detect AI-generated content? That would not only be pointless and futile; the threat of false positives would be enormously de…

if there's money to be made, then there'll be people who'll try and make it. doesn't matter how aware of the philosophy or ethics you are. humanist intelligence rarely comes into the equation when money is on the table

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#285

Post by olddustytrail »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #260
teaearlgraycold wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And only a matter of time until a major game lets you talk to NPCs by generating dialog with an LLM.

It'll be interesting to see if a game can make good use of that, but it sounds like it would lead to some very frustrating interactions.

Have you tried it? As in, prompt the LLM that it's the character you want and then converse?

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#286

Post by dragonwriter »

kemayo wrote: post #160
dragonwriter wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In court, it would be the entity claiming infringement that would have the burden of proof that their exclusive rights under copyright were violated by the assets in question, not the distributor of the asset that had the burden of showing ownership of every item in the training set of the model used in some part of the workflow.

What I'd assume Valve is worried about is that it only takes one major decision against Stable Diffusion in court to suddenly leave us in a state where "this game used Stable Diffusion" is the proof that's needed. Given the whole "Stable Diffusion reproduces the Getty Images watermark" lawsuit[1] that's still ongoing, it's not an idle concern. [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/17/23558516/ai-art-copyright...

> What I'd assume Valve is worried about is that it only takes one major decision against Stable Diffusion in court to suddenly leave us in a state where "this game used Stable Diffusion" is the proof that's needed.

Hard to see how any plausible outcome that would have that result for users of SD (if model training isn’t fair use, that’s definitely a blanket-liability issue for Stability.AI — and Midjourney, and OpenAI, and lots of people training their own models, either from scratch or fine-tuning, using others' copyright-protected works.

But “using a tool that violates copyright in the workflow” is not itself infringement; whether and in what situations prompting SD to produce output makes the output a violation of copyright (and whose) would be a completely different decision, and while Ibcan certainly see cases (such as deliberately seeking to reproduce a particulaflr copyright-protected element, like a character, from the source data) where it might be (irrespective of the copyright status of the model itself), I haven't seen anyone propose a rule that could be applied (much less an argument that would justify it as likely) based on copyright law that gets you to “used SD, in violation”.

Lots of blanket ethical arguments about using it, but that’s a different domain than law.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#287

Post by sebzim4500 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #119
Vermeulen wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already successful Steam games known to have used AI art. And this is only in the cases of the developers publicly admitting that. High On Life used Midjourney for it's ingame posters - https://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/1583230/ - https://www.thegamer.com/high-on-life-ai-generated-art/ And Firmament https://store.steampowered.com/app/754890/Firmament/ - https://www.pcgamer.com/firmament-ai-generat…

No, the developers just need to “affirmatively confirm” that the own the copyright on all the works in Midjourney’s training set, and they are good.

I'm sure some indie studios will sign whatever, but as soon as a large studio uses an public model Steam will have to roll over on this one.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#288

Post by Verdex »

mcpackieh wrote: post #125
Verdex wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's really about enforcement. It's more about liability. Valve has an official position that they don't allow AI content (apparently). When the lawsuits show up they can say that they don't serve any AI content as official policy. When someone points out the AI content that they do serve, then they pull out their expert witness that testifies that their AI detection method is as good as possible and th…

> Finally, I suspect that anyone who can prove that they're able and willing to indemnify Valve against lawsuits for AI content that their game contains will be allowed to have AI content. Yes, they're quoted as saying that AI generated assets are permitted if the developer can "affirmatively confirm" they own all the IP in the training set. seems reasonable to me.

Yeah, I saw that quoted part, although, I suspect that if I show up with a bunch of AI assets that I can prove are 100% mine, then the reviewer is likely to error on the side of Valve not being sued.

Meanwhile, AAA blockbuster studio will almost definitely be given a pass with a wink and a handshake after saying, "Hey if anyone figures it out, we'll take the blame." For using assets that throw up multiple red flags.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#289

Post by xsmasher »

Kiro wrote: post #141
deskamess wrote: post #118

Interesting... what would an AI trained only on the Commons/public domain be like? Would it be a clean source for new images? And would new images need to inherit a public/Commons license (GPL style)?

I thought Adobe Firefly did that.

And some non-public-domain images of their own.

> The current Firefly generative AI model is trained on a dataset of Adobe Stock, along with openly licensed work and public domain content where copyright has expired.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#290

Post by blibble »

hyperhopper wrote: post #147
urda wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like a cop-out. Adhering to legal and copyright standards isn't a "cop-out"

[flagged]

regardless of legality: the odds are games with AI generated materials are going to be much lower quality

(shovelware)

Post reply on HN