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Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

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Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#281
post #2

It absolutely amazes me how badly reddit has handled this whole situation. From the years of broken promises to moderators, the complete lack of accessibility in their own apps, and then on top of their for their CEO to not only get caught in a major lie but for him to then double down on it. As much as reddit wants to make these developers into the bad guys, every move they've made in this mess has hurt their reputa…

"I try to invest in businesses that are so wonderful that an idiot can run them. Because sooner or later, one will." --Warren Buffet.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#282
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but without those moderators there's not much of a site. I don't spent a lot of time thinking about trash collection, but if all the garbage on my street stopped being collected I'd absolutely notice.

> Sure, but without those moderators there's not much of a site. I believe moderators on Reddit like to think that they're that important and integral to the site functioning smoothly, but I think the reality is upvoting/downvoting/reporting works perfectly fine in nearly every subreddit. The only time it doesn't work is in places like r/AskHistorians or r/science which require high quality comments much like this pl…

> I believe moderators on Reddit like to think that they're that important and integral to the site functioning smoothly, but I think the reality is upvoting/downvoting/reporting works perfectly fine in nearly every subreddit.

This seems very naive, since afaik the mods also deal (thru 3rd party apps or extensions) with the large amount of spam that reddit gets. And, of course, who is going to deal with those reports?

I mean, sure, Reddit could close everything but the top 20 or 30 most popular subreddits, hire some offshored mods, and start the content moderation speedrun[1] anew. But, why? And how bad will it get before the IPO? Reddit has spent the past two decades washing their hands of any moderation tasks, as their first party mod tools show. Starting now, with a pissed off power user base, seems suicidal.

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[1] https://www.techdirt.com/2022/11/02/hey-elon-let-me-help-you...

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#283
post #13

>users revolted tbh right now it feels like mods, and especially power-mods (who are moding several high traffic subs), are revolting. I actually enjoy this blackout because a lot of small subs became active refuge for people who doesn't really care about the whole drama. Honestly I'm curious how this will play out but I can see subs just "naturally" replacing themselves with new ones. fyi 92 of top 500 subreddits co…

I'm trying to stay off Reddit in protest.

Likewise. But idk if I'll have much of a choice come June 30th when 3rd party apps get shut down. I don't really use a browser anymore to engage with reddit, and their official app has been complete garbage.

I'm fine with not providing them with content or ad views anymore if they don't want to work with 3rd party developers.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#284
post #126
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The straight answer is that ads are embedded in the "HTTP API" and the vast majority of browser users don't have adblock, and Reddit can't force ads on any API users (except through the official app).

> and Reddit can't force ads on any API users Why not though? Seems really straightforward to serve ads over the API and enforce any display guidelines on third-party apps, since there are only a handful of significant apps anyway.

It would require some very careful system design and lots of trust of the third-party apps.

(It's been a while since I was in the middle of this, so stuff may have changed a bit. But in general...)

Ads are usually not served up by the application provider (Reddit). Instead, they embed URLs given to them by their customers (ad agencies). If the app is browser-based they'll wrap them in some javascript that also calls app provider endpoints and manages clicks on the ads. They do this for a few reasons: 1) There's a huge amount of overhead to the app provider if they try to manage and serve the customer's ad creatives. 2) There's a lot of hassle for the customer; they have to go through the app provider to make any changes to the ad media. 3) Nobody trusts anybody else; this way the customer knows exactly how many times their ad was shown (and if video possibly how long it rolled), and the app provider still knows how many times the ad was displayed vs. just offered to the end user's device, and what the click-throughs were.

The app provider could pass the customer URLs and the provider's wrapping endpoints to third-party apps. But they'd need to think good and hard about all possible fraud games, and would need to trust the third-party app to perform the complex dance properly. Examples:

1) what if the third-party messes up and doesn't call the click-through endpoint? Or sometimes does? Or calls it when they shouldn't? Click-through accounting is a huge deal with very large financial ramifications.

2) How do you enforce that the proper ads are shown in the proper context? If you control the app then you can sell above-the-fold vs. below-the-fold spots etc.

3) How do you control that the ads are actually shown when they should be? Not every link given will result in an impression (below-the-fold again).

4) Even if you completely trust the third-party app's motives, how do you monitor and debug the end-to-end flow?

5) How do you convince your advertisers that's everything is under control? A customer is probably going to have fewer warm-and-fuzzies with third-party impressions, and very well might discount their value.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#285
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but without those moderators there's not much of a site. I don't spent a lot of time thinking about trash collection, but if all the garbage on my street stopped being collected I'd absolutely notice.

> without those moderators there's not much of a site How many of those users would notice if Reddit swapped in paid moderators for the largest subs?

That probably won’t help with their quest for profitability.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how you look at it, Reddit leadership massively screwed this up. When half your site goes offline for two days and the entire front page is calling for the CEO's head, it's obvious that they have lost touch. And since they aren't reversing course on this, you can assume even more user-hostile changes are coming in the near future.

Agreed. And it’s actually 90% of the site offline at this point. And many subreddits have said they’ll be private indefinitely, not just 2 days.

> it’s actually 90% of the site offline at this point.

How did you determine this?

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#287
post #259

It's so weird that this revenue generating app is the poster child for Reddit admins abusing third parties or whatever. They literally made money for years, almost completely unbothered by Reddit inc, with their own ads and subscription model. I just don't get it, this is not some open source app getting mauled by a corporate behemoth. Apollo probably made more profit from Reddit than Reddit itself. And yes I know, R…

The choices are not just "third party apps get a free lunch" or "third-party apps pay $millions". Even Selig admits there's a middle ground where API pricing is reasonable. Or maybe just restricted to Reddit Gold accounts. Or Reddit inserts must-show ads into API responses. Et cetera. The point is there's a middle ground to be had, but rather than negotiating for an outcome both sides can live with, Reddit is just ch…

What would be the middle ground here? As I said I'm not sure inserting ads in the API would be feasible. And the quoted figure of 2.50$ per user per month would be reasonable to charge for a commercial user , I think. Yes, it would mean every apollo user would have to pay but that's the thing ; they are monetizing the app already. I'm not sure what would be more reasonable but I'm also sure that the timelines suck for commercial apps to figure it out. But it was still bound to happen, and to me I don't see what's the middle ground that the dev wants (less than 2.50$?).

Again though, I'm sure there are nuances here. But this is just a business negotiation between two businesses in this specific case. I don't really care about what's feasible for Apollo as a business, what matters more is how non commercial usage is dealt with. For now, and correct me if I'm wrong, the API limits will still be generous for individual users (so mods, etc). They just have to generate their own key. Did I get that wrong?

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#288

They buried the lede. The article suggests the shutdown was because of free API to paid API. Anyone uninformed who just click off at that point. Even when they ask about costs, it was just saying it’s “ But the issue is two fold. (1) all the devs support a paid API, but the rate is absurd according to basic math. It would charge devs over 20x what a user actually cost/were worth. Devs were willing to take on a higher…

It's funny when I design my own public apps, I'm careful about API usage. I can only imagine what an app is like that was designed with no API limits whatsoever. It's kind of amazing Reddit ever allowed this sort of no limits API usage - while at the same time Apollo charged their own users while enjoying zero infrastructure costs. What a steal.

A factor is, that the user's of those apps overproportionally create content, which is later served to other users.

Most users come via Google or other ways to read some content. Only few participate actively. Earning less on those few users can be valuable overall.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#289

Appollo main dev said he wanted 10M to “keep the app quiet”. I wouldn’t want to negotiate after that as well.

He was making a joke. If Reddit took a stressed joke attempting to defuse the situation a bit as a threat, it really makes the statement that their management or outreach team really does consist of mentally slow people who should experience a Musk-style firing.

Some people make jokes when they are stressed or anxious.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#290

this is why reddit shouldnt go public either every company that goes public ends up going to shit for the user experience. someones just trying to get rich off our fuckin backs for creating content they profit off.

Reddit policy explicitly prohibits more than 10% of a user's submissions from being original content. The site is a link aggregator, not promotional show and tell, despite what people think.
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