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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

cnn.com

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Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#281

Post by lyu07282 »

seydor wrote: post #184
lm28469 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very limited definition of culture then I'd say the french protests are a good testament to the french culture being alive and kicking when basically every other country accept slaving their lives away until 67+

France also is the cradle of liberal economic ideas, its culture did not start in 1968. And let's face it, the protesters demand are not realistic, they are about kicking the can down the road a bit more before it explodes

It feels like a natural outcome of liberalism, social democratic band aids are kicking the can down the road before it explodes into the working class rioting on the streets. Can only do so much austerity and wealth redistribution to the wealthy, i.e. "IMF-approved, sound economic policies without alternative" before that happens.

The real problems are the unfortunate contradictions in end of politics style liberalism: growing wealth inequality, wage stagnation, increased worker efficiency and record profits, the media can only do so much to hide it. So protesters are under the impression that their demands are realistic, of course thats at the root of the argument and your outlook on it depends on your degree of faith in liberalism.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#282

Post by poisonarena »

ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

While not Europe, I can tell you my experience in Israel as someone who lived there in the 2000's, left in the 2010s, and returned in the 2020s(felt like a time machine).. within about 10-15 years so much of what I think was distinct about israeli culture seemed to vanish and it felt like American culture made a huge impact short of some older russian enclave communities(not including their children). Everything from television/music/movies/media, to slang and dating, politics and views, and just how people behaved in general (grew up in southern tel aviv surrounded by 'arsim' like a type of chav or something). There is still relics of it in behavior and style but it is almost always something I notice in people 40+ years.

I also saw it happen over the course of maybe 4-5 years when I lived in Mexico City in 2013-2017.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#284

Post by madmask »

pb7 wrote: post #209
noncoml wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pick Italian. Beautiful language, lots of common words with most languages and I don’t think any non-EU countries use it. And if everything else fails, you start using your hands to communicate. Mid 40s here and wouldn’t mind at all to start learning Italian if it was the common language of EU.

Why pick the language of one of the weakest EU members?

Not sure why we have this bad reputation in the Anglo world, but we are the third economy in Europe, and the second manufacturing power after Germany. Huge differences between north (closer to Germany) and south (closer to Spain). Huge private wealth despite indebted government. Wouldn’t call this weak.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#285

Post by tmtvl »

pb7 wrote: post #209
noncoml wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pick Italian. Beautiful language, lots of common words with most languages and I don’t think any non-EU countries use it. And if everything else fails, you start using your hands to communicate. Mid 40s here and wouldn’t mind at all to start learning Italian if it was the common language of EU.

Why pick the language of one of the weakest EU members?

It has the best operas.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#286

Post by Bayart »

hunglee2 wrote: post #90
pyuser583 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. It’s always been touch and go. Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions. Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis shi…

yes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right? Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'

> Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian

French was normalized as a written language around the great feudal courts of Northern France, at the time Paris wasn't particularly influential culturally. Parisian French was itself quite distinct from "government French" until recently.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#287

Post by bonzini »

pb7 wrote: post #214
bonzini wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, propaganda. Write a stupid bill, do nothing to make it progress in Parliament, you nevertheless gain airtime and visibility for yourself and your party. By the time of the next election everyone will have forgotten.

The rest of the world won’t forget though. It’s one of many ways Italians are embarrassing themselves recently.

Oh, I know. :/

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#288

Post by adontz »

Bayart wrote: post #279
antirez wrote: post #180

Please, don't think Italians are like that. It's just this stupid government. For instance in Italian, unlike Spanish, French, ..., there are no italianized words for all the computer science words, we just use English. In general there is not a big sentiment of culture self-defence. But this government is trying to do things that will appeal the dumb people voting for it.

> there are no italianized words for all the computer science words, we just use English You're bragging about your language being poorer.

You really want to use farsound instead of telephone?

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#289

Post by samus »

leonhard wrote: post #164
kuboble wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In German speaking parts of Switzerland people speak Swiss German. The official and written language is high German. Although loosely related, they are two different languages.

Hm I’m not sure this is a good example, it’s really just a dialect. Any German speaker can usually understand most of it when concentrating a bit. And Wikipedia seems to agree. [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_German

The official written language is German, albeit a different standard than non-Swiss German. The difference is not that big, it's like between written American and British English. But I can assure you that most non-Swiss German speakers can't casually understand Swiss German dialects.

Edit: these dialect are commonly used in court, public offices, and often on TV. They have a vastly stronger role in public life than in other German-speaking countries.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#290

Post by vkou »

seydor wrote: post #184
lm28469 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very limited definition of culture then I'd say the french protests are a good testament to the french culture being alive and kicking when basically every other country accept slaving their lives away until 67+

France also is the cradle of liberal economic ideas, its culture did not start in 1968. And let's face it, the protesters demand are not realistic, they are about kicking the can down the road a bit more before it explodes

What's unrealistic is the upper few percent of society vacuuming up almost all the surplus wealth generated by the other 95% for themselves.
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