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Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

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Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#281

Post by account42 »

dnissley wrote: post #138
spacemadness wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could see these being difficult logistical problems for companies but that gives them no right to socialize the problem by playing hardball and holding accounts hostage. That problem is in their domain to solve, and sorry that being a profitable business is tough but, again, solving this is not on the customer.

I imagine the solution will simply be to charge higher prices across the board. We will all pay for the ability to charge back and not lose account access, including subsidizing the most flagrant abusers of such a policy. This could be a good trade off, but I think it's important to highlight that there is definitely no free lunch here and that legislating this problem away will have some downstream effects.

This assumes that current prices at all related to cost, which they are not for non-scarce goods like games and other digital content. Prices are set to maximize sales * revenue and adding a minor cost for Steam doesn't really factor into that.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#282

Post by account42 »

vuln wrote: post #243
jjulius wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't think of it as renting or a lease, companies should call it renting or leasing. Otherwise, they're pissing on my leg and telling me that it's raining.

Well after _years_ of getting pissed on most people move their leg instead of complaining about it. :)

Do they? Seems to me most people just put up with the piss because the spot is convenient.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#283

Post by account42 »

afterburner wrote: post #43
bluetidepro wrote: post #5

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your m…

This is just common in general. Nobody that you chargeback is going to want your business again. It's just that tech companies usually hold something you want (your account) effectively hostage, whereas a restaurant or whatever you can just stop going to. This does make it worse.

No restaurant is going to remember my face forever over a simple payment dispute.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#284

Post by account42 »

ryandrake wrote: post #153
afterburner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just common in general. Nobody that you chargeback is going to want your business again. It's just that tech companies usually hold something you want (your account) effectively hostage, whereas a restaurant or whatever you can just stop going to. This does make it worse.

> This is just common in general. Nobody that you chargeback is going to want your business again. Similarly, no company that I chargeback against do I want to do business with anymore. A chargeback is a "burn the bridges" moment. You have tried everything reasonable, and the company is now defrauding you. Why on earth do you want to continue doing business with them?

In the case of companies like Steam the answer is: Because some products are not available elsewhere. So it's not that you want to do business with them but that not doing business with them also cuts you off from a large number of other companies. Similarily, if your water company overcharges you then you still want to be able to get water even if you need to charge back or take them to court over the dispute. In some way, Steam has taken over the role of infrastructure for Game delivery and I don't think its unreasonable to recognize that by applying different rules to them in the same way your local power and water companies get different rules from a mom&pop store.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#285

Post by indymike »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #104
indymike wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The button needs to say "rent" or "lease". A "buy" button should not result in a rental.

You're not doing that either. You're buying a revocable license to access. That's actually worse than renting or leasing. In the case of Amazon Music, if you haven't fallen for the subscription nonsense, you actually are buying the MP3 files. You can download them and then it's on you to move them around as you need. Amazon will also "keep a copy in the cloud for you, and let you play it wherever." You lose that when…

Then the button should say ‘license’. Lying to buyers is simply not right.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#286

Post by account42 »

piperswe wrote: post #102
Kiro wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I refund routinely on Steam. The only times it doesn't work is if I've played more than 2 hours which seems fair. I don't see why I would be entitled to making a chargeback after I've played the game for that long. That would be like renting a movie, watch it and then make a chargeback.

Steam will even still give you refunds after 2 hours if you have a reason that convinces the customer service rep (e.g. performance or compatibility issues that you spent 3 hours running the game trying to fix)

I hope you are not trying to suggest that something Steam should be commended for rather than just the bare minimum. If the product being defective only becomes apparent after two hours then the product is still defective.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#287

Post by account42 »

elpool2 wrote: post #78
cool_dude85 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the Fortnite cash shop, but do they refund hard currency or just "points"/ fun bucks?

If you purchased something in-game with "v-bucks" then you can get your v-bucks back if you still haven't actually used the item in a game yet, or if it was purchased in the last 30 days (up to 3 times). They don't usually refund actual money, as far as I can tell.

So effectively they don't provide refunds at all? Non-withdrawable store credit should probably be illegal too.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#288

Post by leroy-is-here »

my_usernam3 wrote: post #23
PurpleRamen wrote: post #6

That's the second time now I read about Epic Games paying a fine for doing something obviously shady and illegal. I slowly get the impression that Epic Games might be a bit more scammy than your average company.

I think I agree with you, but to play devil's advocate, the video game industry is struggling to monetize their work. No one wants to pay for games anymore, no one wants a pay to win system in a game, and cosmetic items seem like a waste of money to most. The result is the gaming industry pulling out all the tricks to try to separate the consume from his or her wallet to pay for content.

It’s always great to have companies like FromSoft who still make great and complete games which empirically deny claims like “people don’t want to pay for games “. The statement feels like it came from a board room that was discussing the latest digital-cosmetic store dark pattern.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#289

Post by account42 »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #20
degenerate wrote: post #9

> In Spring 2018, Epic executives and managers discussed adding a confirm purchase button to prevent accidental purchases. Though employees were concerned that “it is a bit of a dark UX pattern to not have confirmation on ‘destructive’ actions,” Epic feared that adding a confirmation button would add “friction,” “result in a decent number of people second guessing their purchase,” and reduce the number of “impulse pu…

And despite Epic having great games, this is why I have not installed it or paid for any of their product so far. Also why steam is still the leader despite having a terrible UI: they have been very good to their customers.

Steam is not "very good" to their customers unless you mean in comparison to the abysmal competition. Remember they only started doing refunds after being taken to court by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. Even now their refuns are extremely restrictive compared to what a retail store would offer.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#290

Post by account42 »

mrguyorama wrote: post #121
my_usernam3 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I agree with you, but to play devil's advocate, the video game industry is struggling to monetize their work. No one wants to pay for games anymore, no one wants a pay to win system in a game, and cosmetic items seem like a waste of money to most. The result is the gaming industry pulling out all the tricks to try to separate the consume from his or her wallet to pay for content.

It had no problem monetizing their work BEFORE the microtransaction hellscape we have now, which has made these companies insanely profitable.

Exactly - it's not that there aren't people that want to buy games, it's that giving games away for free and then selling microtransactions is more profitable.
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