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We should have Markdown-rendered websites

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Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#281
post #70

Markdown is a convenient but deeply limited markup language with only a small subset of html's features. And yes, limitations are good because we want documents not web apps, etc, etc, but I mean "images can't have captions" limited, "navigation bars don't exist" limited. Actual important features of html don't exist in markdown, which is why almost every markdown platform ends up adding extensions and shortcodes. Wh…

Uh, yeah, that's a valid web-page, but I don't see how that counters "html is cluttered" statement. This is cluttered. It… just is. I know some people who suffered some mind deformation in academia and now claim LaTeX is the perfect markup for blogs, but I don't think I've encountered the same for html until now. I mean, does somebody really compose text in html?!

Markdown is deeply limited, that's true, but I often think that there is just a tiny bit of syntax lacking to make it just fine. Some actually is implemented in software like Pandoc or RedCarpet, there are a couple of ways to make tables (some better than others), LaTeX can be employed for formulas, some implementations have checklists, strikethrough, etc. It's just poorly standartized — and the spirit of original proposal (and misleading name) is at fault here as well, since later attempts to invent a standard mean very little when there is a dozen of different common implementations and not a single one is reasonably complete.

By the way, the fact that HTML was supposed to serve as an addition to Markdown doesn't help: you just cannot allow people to submit arbitrary HTML everywhere where something like Markdown is needed. To use it in comments on a forum you need to fully parse it anyway, explicitly enabling or disabling different features of some ubiquitous "full implementation".

Obviously, you cannot make an atrocity like a modern landing page in Markdown+. But… ok, I shouldn't be judgemental and claim such atrocities shouldn't exist — they can, but most blogs, forums (such as this one), etc. — really could have been just "viewer programs" of some standardized format, much more restrictive than HTML+CSS+JS, but a little less limited than Markdown.

All of this isn't very much related to the original topic, but seriously, I dream of some better version of Markdown someday becoming a de-facto standard markup language for all forums, messengers, blogging engines, whatever the general name for Jira is… You know what I mean.

I don't really have a solution, it just really feels like there shouldn't be that many additional features. A couple more of emphasis options, a couple less ways to do the same thing (I mean, it's stupid to convert all of */-/+ to the same elements), colors, better image embeddings (with captions), sidenotes, better ways to handle formulas (there are enough dedicated literals in Unicode to construct most simple formulas without the need for LaTeX, but they still need to be parsed to be rendered pretty) and simple UML-like stuff… I'm pretty sure the comprehensive list of features for 6-σ usecases cannot be THAT huge. Big, yes. Not endless. And most features surely have some "plain-text" (or very light special syntax) representations.

I realize that it was pretty much the intention behind HTML + CSS. But HTML + CSS stopped being that a very, very long time ago. 30 years have passed. By now, we should have a little better sense of what's needed to write & render most texts.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#282
post #70

Markdown is a convenient but deeply limited markup language with only a small subset of html's features. And yes, limitations are good because we want documents not web apps, etc, etc, but I mean "images can't have captions" limited, "navigation bars don't exist" limited. Actual important features of html don't exist in markdown, which is why almost every markdown platform ends up adding extensions and shortcodes. Wh…

The fatal flaw of HTML (and XML for that matter) is that the tags have the same visual weight as the text they're delimiting, which makes for a sense of clutter even in your minimal example. Markdown really scores here, by having a pleasing plain text representation as a goal from the outset, and I've love to see it used more widely for web pages. I'd also love to see it more widely used for offline reading, too - th…

This is a great point.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#283
The problem with only using markup to render websites is the lack of navigation.

We need something to show next/previous page (we have rel headers and tags for that) and something that shows a tree navigation structure for populating menus (not sure what exists for that)

The tree structure would need to be “crawlable” because for very large sites, the entire tree can’t be loaded. That could be solved by representing nodes on the tree as URLs that can be loaded by the client as needed.

I’d love to see this happen. I don’t think we need markdown per-se… maybe it’s a subset of HTML that leaves out css, JavaScript, and a lot of the other nonsense.

Is anybody interested in building this out? I have ideas for the server and formats, but would want help implementing the clients.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#284
post #70

Markdown is a convenient but deeply limited markup language with only a small subset of html's features. And yes, limitations are good because we want documents not web apps, etc, etc, but I mean "images can't have captions" limited, "navigation bars don't exist" limited. Actual important features of html don't exist in markdown, which is why almost every markdown platform ends up adding extensions and shortcodes. Wh…

For a static document markup language, Djot does a rather good job: https://github.com/jgm/djot

It's very similar yet much fuller-featured than commonmark, with support for definition lists, footnotes, tables, several new kinds of inline formatting (insert, delete, highlight, superscript, subscript), math, smart punctuation, attributes that can be applied to any element, and generic containers for block-level, inline-level, and raw content. In addition, it resolves ambiguities in the commonmark spec and parses in linear time with no backtracking.

Further discussion lower in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33553293

Quickstart for Markdown users: https://github.com/jgm/djot/blob/main/doc/quickstart-for-mar...

Some more in-depth examples, showing how Djot would be rendered into HTML: https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/jgm/djot/b...

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#286
post #70

Markdown is a convenient but deeply limited markup language with only a small subset of html's features. And yes, limitations are good because we want documents not web apps, etc, etc, but I mean "images can't have captions" limited, "navigation bars don't exist" limited. Actual important features of html don't exist in markdown, which is why almost every markdown platform ends up adding extensions and shortcodes. Wh…

Plain HTML would be great, its just browsers holding it back. Without CSS, it looks unacceptably ugly.

Agreed, classless css to the rescue, eg https://newcss.net/

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#287
post #70

Markdown is a convenient but deeply limited markup language with only a small subset of html's features. And yes, limitations are good because we want documents not web apps, etc, etc, but I mean "images can't have captions" limited, "navigation bars don't exist" limited. Actual important features of html don't exist in markdown, which is why almost every markdown platform ends up adding extensions and shortcodes. Wh…

> only a small subset of html's features.

On the contrary - Markdown is essentially a superset of HTML, so unless you're using a renderer that strips it from the input, you can have the best of both worlds.

This property was super useful for a lightweight CMS I threw together a few years and which is still used by the original customer today. 99% of what they need to render is easily authored in Markdown, and this further helps ensure a commonality of style and device portability.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#288
post #70

Markdown is a convenient but deeply limited markup language with only a small subset of html's features. And yes, limitations are good because we want documents not web apps, etc, etc, but I mean "images can't have captions" limited, "navigation bars don't exist" limited. Actual important features of html don't exist in markdown, which is why almost every markdown platform ends up adding extensions and shortcodes. Wh…

The fatal flaw of HTML (and XML for that matter) is that the tags have the same visual weight as the text they're delimiting, which makes for a sense of clutter even in your minimal example. Markdown really scores here, by having a pleasing plain text representation as a goal from the outset, and I've love to see it used more widely for web pages. I'd also love to see it more widely used for offline reading, too - th…

[deleted]

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#289
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Write a list in HTML and write one in Markdown. The difference in legibility is pronounced. Especially if you don't want weird whitespace things.

But why does it matter what the underlying code looks like to the end user? Nobody complains that the assembly code that runs their application is cluttered and illegible.

It doesn't.

But it matters to the author.

Assembler is not a popular language.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#290
post #70

Markdown is a convenient but deeply limited markup language with only a small subset of html's features. And yes, limitations are good because we want documents not web apps, etc, etc, but I mean "images can't have captions" limited, "navigation bars don't exist" limited. Actual important features of html don't exist in markdown, which is why almost every markdown platform ends up adding extensions and shortcodes. Wh…

> only a small subset of html's features. On the contrary - Markdown is essentially a superset of HTML, so unless you're using a renderer that strips it from the input, you can have the best of both worlds. This property was super useful for a lightweight CMS I threw together a few years and which is still used by the original customer today. 99% of what they need to render is easily authored in Markdown, and this fu…

Flavors of Markdown might be a superset, but as it is normally used, I don't think many would say that Markdown has all the abilities of HTML.
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