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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#281

Post by denton-scratch »

nibbleshifter wrote: post #181
blub wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIPs are a tool for managing out employees that don’t perform well or don’t yield to often abusive company demands like e.g. overtime or pissed of somebody in management or connected to management.

Last time I got put on a PIP was for refusing an entirely unreasonable request to be on call, and leaving my work phone at home during that period. I started making plans to resign pretty soon after being put on the PIP.

I dunno, can't you just say "Dude, if you put me on the PIP, I'll have trouble leaving. Since what you're proposing amounts to disciplinary measures, I'll be quitting anyway; so why make it harder for me to get a new job?"

The dismissal process for underperformance here (UK) requires the employer to give warnings: one verbal, and two written, I think. The employer is also expected to help the employee meet the performance target. The PIP sounds like a checklist version of that help - it's not meant to help the employee, it's meant to hustle along the dismissal process. I'd take a job flipping burgers, rather than work for a boss that put me on a PIP.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#282

Post by skeeter2020 »

pridkett wrote: post #193
licebmi__at__ wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I worked on a company with a performance program (I can really remember the exact euphemism), in which all new employees were supposed to take part when joining, and then if marked as low performer go through it again, with a neat addition... random employees were also selected to go through it again just because.

That’s not that terrible idea - it removes some of the stigma and potentially helps ensure the program provides value rather than just being a checkbox on the way to termination.

>> it removes some of the stigma

Stigma around being on a corrective performance plan should be removed?

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#283

Post by bernulli »

phpisthebest wrote: post #133
geek_at wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European in general. My wife works for a biotech company in Austria which was recently aquired by an american company and it's so funny to hear about their efforts to adapt to EU law and culture. Most of their training material is still unchanged from their US branch so there are things they list as benefits for all employees like - 3 Weeks paid vacation (we get 5 by law) - Health insurance (you know the drill) - 3 w…

>>(we get 1 year for 80% pay, first 6 months full pay, then 5 years protection against dismissal) That is just crazy.... I would hate to be a chidless person in your country, I can not image the extra amount of work that get places on people that do not have children... As someone that will never have a child I like the fact that the US does not force this kind of parental leave on employers, I know that will be very…

There's a simple word for people with that attitude: freeloader. It's pretty easy to understand:

> I can not image the extra amount of work that get places on people that do not have children...

What you're forgetting is the amount of work required to raise children. That's an externality that is only covered through a social contract, where everyone contributes to a next generation. Why should parents put in the extra work to raise children that, god forbid, would ever do something you benefit from?

What you want is someone else doing the work so that you can just reap the benefits. You're a freeloader, plain and simple (other, less favorable words come to mind).

Unless, of course, you will never in your life use the services or inventions of anyone younger than you. But, somehow, I doubt that - am I right? You just expect those cohorts to just appear out od thin air to your benefit.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#284

Post by skeeter2020 »

blub wrote: post #101
ineedasername wrote: post #80

he was ordered to take part in a virtual training period called a "Corrective Action Program." This is the sort of name given to processes uses when an employee is already performing below expectations. (Where I work it’s a more euphemistic Performance Improvement). If that’s the case here then his firing was a bit less sudden than it appears. Though the entire monitoring process seems draconian regardless.

PIPs are a tool for managing out employees that don’t perform well or don’t yield to often abusive company demands like e.g. overtime or pissed of somebody in management or connected to management.

PIPs rarely work but it's the legal system that awards poor performers the equivalent of a year of salary when they're fired that makes them a requirement in the first place.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#285

Post by graderjs »

That's what I like about europe: legal protections. I have the feeling there's no way that would ever happen in East Asia (excepting maaaybe Japan). Tho it would probably happen in parts of SE Asia, Indonesia etc, informed by a cultural and political impetus to slough off the perceived historical yoke of Western colonial exploitation. But other places (like Ph, and Thailand, I guess) this would never happen, I think as they need their Western manufacturing contracts too dearly... I think.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#286

Post by niels8472 »

phpisthebest wrote: post #253
isodev wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s because when you hire employees they come with the aspect of being “people”. People work to live, they don’t live to work.

This has the very very close connotation to "from each according to ability to each according to need" I live a very frugle life, my expenses are low, I have no kids, I dont take expensive vacations, drive a fancy car, etc... So should that mean I do not get time off, or high raises, etc simply because my "needs" are not the same as a co-worker? Why should a co-workers personal life choices (i.e the choice to have 1…

Considering having children is beneficial to society and the economy (e.g. it's advantageous for employers since they still want to be able to hire people in n years and surely they'd like there to still be customers) one could argue that the programmer with five kids should get some "compensation" for this service, and as we know some countries do either directly or via employers.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#287

Post by durnygbur »

This company's website, offer, and videos gives me such creepy vibes... American-business-software kind. Everyone are so proud, fulfilled, trained, and friendly. Have one shameful few months long episode at a similar one in Czechia... CREEPY.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#288

Post by canacrypto »

sebazzz wrote: post #36

I love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws.

A first glance, this may sound like a case of a bad US company meeting reasonable labor laws, but Euro laws of often unreasonably restrictive. Companies choose to leave entirely, as happened here. How many people lost their jobs so this one person could have their payout? This company definitely sucks, but still unfortunate for others caught in the crossfire.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#289

Post by goodpoint »

yrgulation wrote: post #39
volepole wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your boss is just some other person. If he thinks he's superior to anyone else, he can fuck right off. He'll end up as worm food just like the rest of us.

The amount of people that advocate in favour of master-servant mentality is appallingly high. No wonder there are so many that prefer working in human farms.

Indeed.

Not to mention that the company was already monitoring keystrokes and requiring screen sharing. This indeed is some slavery mindset.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#290

Post by alkonaut »

warent wrote: post #208
Symbiote wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries go further, but the EU does require a minimum. - 4 weeks paid holiday - 4 months unpaid parental leave, 14 weeks paid for the mother https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_labour_law is the best overview I can find.

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure there are systems in place in these countries which actually make it possible. right? Like, there are insurances and government assistance programs that businesses use to pay for things like parental leave. US businesses get no such help. So what is often attributed to US business greed is actually political greed, while businesses are just casualties.

Yes at least when I’m sick or on parental leave it’s not the company paying the parental leave money. The law makes it a requirement for my employer to let me take my parental leave, i.e they can’t refuse or not have my job there when I return. So while that’s a cost to them, of course they don’t pay me my 80% salary when I’m gone 6-12 months. Tax money does. My employer can use my salary money to pay for my replacement.
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