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Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

news.stanford.edu

281–290 of 394 posts

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#281
post #228

I need ELI5: electric cars have very large and heavy batteries right? Why is it prohibitively difficult to replace them on demand? What if there were 2-3 batteries charging at home or hundreds at a "battery station", where you would park at a spot/drive-thru garage and have a hydraulic machine drop your old battery and lift in a new battery and the whole swap can take no longer than the time it takes to fill up a has…

I think the problem is that you are thinking of things purely in terms of how gas stations and gas powered cars work. You need to step back and re-think.

For almost all EV owners, a level 2 (240V 20amp) charger at home is all that's needed[0]. It charges slowly, but given the car sits for 12+ hours every night, it's more than enough. You get home, you plug in, you go eat dinner and go to bed. When it's time to go in the morning, you have a full charge. "Refilling" isn't a discrete event that takes place in a given place. You just plug in whenever you aren't driving.

DC fast charging, which charges the car in an hour or less, that's a rare event. It's what you use when you're on a long trip somewhere that takes more than one charge of the battery. But most owners might do that a few times per year.

So the problem you're trying to solve with this "swappable battery" solution is tiny. Imagine how much more the car will cost to support this complexity, and for what benefit? Saving a few hours per year? I won't pay the additional thousands of dollars for the "swappable battery" car, and I won't pay the cost of maintaining the swappable battery stations. It's just not worth it vs spending that time getting lunch.

[0] My wife and I did the math on our own driving patterns and realized we could probably get away with a level ONE charger- literally a standard 120V extension cord - for the EV we're on a waiting list for.

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#282
post #17

>We're doing it wrong, according to a new Stanford study Wrong according to what metric? Cost? Raw efficiency? A lot of people are more than willing to give up efficiency so that they don't have to actually worry about finding a station during the day. To say that something is just outright "wrong" based on their personal preference of priorities comes off as unhelpful to me. The solution is simple. Make electricity…

This is precisely what the linked article says. From the section "Charging Incentives": “And it’s not just California and Western states. All states may need to rethink electricity pricing structures as their EV charging needs increase and their grid changes,” added Powell, who recently took a postdoctoral research position at ETH Zurich. The article also includes other interesting and more nuanced policy details tha…

Seems that commercial power costs less than residential. Sometimes the difference is negligible but other times it's significant. I know residential lines cost much more to maintain because of the distances but that doesn't apply to residential apartments buildings in cities and I believe there's a seperate charge for that.

Why?

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#283
post #281
post #228

I need ELI5: electric cars have very large and heavy batteries right? Why is it prohibitively difficult to replace them on demand? What if there were 2-3 batteries charging at home or hundreds at a "battery station", where you would park at a spot/drive-thru garage and have a hydraulic machine drop your old battery and lift in a new battery and the whole swap can take no longer than the time it takes to fill up a has…

I think the problem is that you are thinking of things purely in terms of how gas stations and gas powered cars work. You need to step back and re-think. For almost all EV owners, a level 2 (240V 20amp) charger at home is all that's needed[0]. It charges slowly, but given the car sits for 12+ hours every night, it's more than enough. You get home, you plug in, you go eat dinner and go to bed. When it's time to go in…

This is a bit of a nitpick, but L2s don’t charge slowly. Ours gets us about 30 miles per hour, so we get fully charged after a normal day’s worth of driving in about 30 minutes.

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#284

"more than 5.4 gigawatts of energy storage would be needed if charging habits follow their current course." Gigawatts are a unit of power, not energy. Storage is measured in gigawatt-hours. Stanford's PR department should know this. The question is, how much storage is needed to make it through the night? The biggest pumped storage station in the US [1] generates 2.7GW of power and stores 24GWH. So, two of those, som…

So we're just going to destroy huge parts of the Sierras so we can charge electric cars?

The reservoirs we're using as an example are in the hundreds of acres of surface area. That's not "huge parts of the Sierras". If you look at Bath County Pumped Storage Station on Google maps, the bigger reservoir is a skinny lake about a mile long.

Perhaps it makes sense to use much larger reservoirs, but even then I have trouble equating the creation of a few artificial lakes with severe environmental destruction. Really, it all depends on where they put it and whether they do reasonable due diligence to not impact existing habitat too severely. The environmental destruction that results from burning petroleum for ground transportation is far worse.

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#285
post #228

I need ELI5: electric cars have very large and heavy batteries right? Why is it prohibitively difficult to replace them on demand? What if there were 2-3 batteries charging at home or hundreds at a "battery station", where you would park at a spot/drive-thru garage and have a hydraulic machine drop your old battery and lift in a new battery and the whole swap can take no longer than the time it takes to fill up a has…

Battery swap stations are an old idea, but it's really hard to actually pull it off. It requires that all the cars you service have the same battery pack, or that there are at most only a few kinds of battery pack to deal with. The packs have to be stored and charged, so you have the same electrical service requirements plus you need a place to store the batteries, and employees or robots to move them around. You need car owners to accept an ownership model where batteries are leased rather than owned.

Modern EV batteries are almost always liquid cooled, so your removable battery will need some kind of fluid connection that can be disconnected and reconnected without dripping ethylene glycol or whatever on everything, and without getting air bubbles in the line.

Some cars are moving towards structural batteries, which means the car is less sturdy without the battery installed. That might not be a problem if it's just sitting there.

The alternative is to just do DC fast charging, which seems to be good enough for most uses.

Personally I think the long-term solution here is to electrify sections of the major highways at regular intervals, so that cars can charge without stopping. Sweden has some pilot projects involving rails embedded in slots in the road surface. Overhead lines are another option (and they're cheaper), but if they're high enough for trucks to fit, then cars would have to have very tall pantographs to reach.

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#286
post #285
post #228

I need ELI5: electric cars have very large and heavy batteries right? Why is it prohibitively difficult to replace them on demand? What if there were 2-3 batteries charging at home or hundreds at a "battery station", where you would park at a spot/drive-thru garage and have a hydraulic machine drop your old battery and lift in a new battery and the whole swap can take no longer than the time it takes to fill up a has…

Battery swap stations are an old idea, but it's really hard to actually pull it off. It requires that all the cars you service have the same battery pack, or that there are at most only a few kinds of battery pack to deal with. The packs have to be stored and charged, so you have the same electrical service requirements plus you need a place to store the batteries, and employees or robots to move them around. You nee…

As a sibling commenter pointed out, NIO is already doing this with millions of swaps already in China.

Instead of electrifying roads for cars, why not electrify them for rail cars and trains?

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#287
post #228

I need ELI5: electric cars have very large and heavy batteries right? Why is it prohibitively difficult to replace them on demand? What if there were 2-3 batteries charging at home or hundreds at a "battery station", where you would park at a spot/drive-thru garage and have a hydraulic machine drop your old battery and lift in a new battery and the whole swap can take no longer than the time it takes to fill up a has…

[deleted]

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#288
> may need to rethink electricity pricing structures as their EV charging needs increase

Duh.

With the ramp up of solar production and the increase of EV demand, there will certainly need to be pricing changes, or simply more people will need to pay more dynamic rates. This will easily shift behaviors, really simple economics at work here.

“At night” is a bad title. People need to not charge their EV right when they get home in the evening which is near peak energy usage, there needs to either be a delay circuit to actually charge at night during the usage minimum (which will actually lower costs and make things more efficient) or during the ever increasing daily solar maximum which is somewhat earlier than the daily usage maximum.

We don’t need rules or morality here, just pricing that motivates people to match their behavior to demand.

Really though charging at home should be fine as long as there’s a “wait until 10pm to save $2” button, or whatever.

It really would be better because raising grid utilization during idle times really helps efficiency.

Some California live power production and usage data:

https://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/Pages/supply.html

TL;DR plug in your car when you go to bed, not when you get home from work.

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#289
post #281
post #228

I need ELI5: electric cars have very large and heavy batteries right? Why is it prohibitively difficult to replace them on demand? What if there were 2-3 batteries charging at home or hundreds at a "battery station", where you would park at a spot/drive-thru garage and have a hydraulic machine drop your old battery and lift in a new battery and the whole swap can take no longer than the time it takes to fill up a has…

I think the problem is that you are thinking of things purely in terms of how gas stations and gas powered cars work. You need to step back and re-think. For almost all EV owners, a level 2 (240V 20amp) charger at home is all that's needed[0]. It charges slowly, but given the car sits for 12+ hours every night, it's more than enough. You get home, you plug in, you go eat dinner and go to bed. When it's time to go in…

And you are only thinking in terms of rich home owners. I get paid verg well and I still can't afford a house. How am I going to charge at an apartment? Do you think they will spend millions converting every parking lot into a charger and maintaining it? Or would I have to stand in line at a charging station? This is one the main reasons I vehemently oppose any idea that promotes electric cars the way they are. We still don't get public transport and only you folks who are rich or inherited a house can afford basic transportation if fossil fuel cars go away anytime in the next 10-15 years.

I uber just fine to work the few times I go in, when I need a car it is to drive long distances and it sucks waiting every few hundred miles in a queue then an hour to charge. It sucks getting stuck in the middle of nowhere because the mountain road took too much energy than what the battery meter anticipated. It sucks being late to important appointments if I forgot to charge or there is some technical issue with the charging. All of this and more can be avoided by just swapping the batteries and they are already doing this in china.

> Imagine how much more the car will cost to support this complexity, and for what benefit? Saving a few hours per year? I won't pay the additional thousands of dollars for the "swappable battery" ...

Ugh, NIO is already doing this in China and I'm pretty sure it's cheaper. Also, the government is literally spending hundreds of billions to subsidize electric car infrastructure so if it wasn't for the sentiment you and others have that convinced politicians we could be getting swappable batteries.

Until then, as much as I am for climate change prevention I will fight against electric cars the way they are. Maybe when charging a car fully takes less than 5 minutes and charging stations are at least have as abundant as gas stations (regardless of how far a full charge takes you) I can support this. China and all the countries that follow them will beat us again on this as well because while we are busy debating why not they are actually getting things done.

Re: Charging cars at home at night is not the way to go: study

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people don't use/waste electricity in large volumes because they are poor and don't have money to waste. Rich people can waste enormous amounts of electricity and not be financially affected. It benefits rich people to schedule running the two clothes washers and two clothes driers at off-peak rates. Poor people don't have energy fat like this to cut.

This is about moving usage around the clock, not cutting unnecessary usage. Yes, poor people have less usage to move around in absolute values, but they have more relatively to their income.

If poor people don't have much to timeshift then it doesn't much benefit them. A single parent working 1.5 jobs and then juggling laundry hours may not be useful for that family nor for society. Maybe the first nnn kilowatt hours each month should be flat rate - like minimum wage sets a floor likewise exempt some small base of electricity usage from the pricing games.
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