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Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

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Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#281
post #221
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but a judge can overrule it. A judge cannot however overrule a not-guilty verdict and find the defendant guilty.

Many apparently don't; there are lots of examples of defendants of colour getting convicted in cases where white defendants get acquitted or receive a very light sentence.

Are the cases the same, or just the charges? Why did the defendant choose a jury trial as opposed to a bench trial if they believed the jury was going to be racist? What was the racial composition of the jury in both cases?

The story is usually a lot more complicated.

There also reverse cases of this too, because high-profile cases are usually dealt with more severely, not because of race. For example, a cop in Florida killed a 36 year old white man in very similar circumstances to George Floyd, and got off scot-free. So for better or worse, notoriety also comes into play.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t try to get out of jury duty. Someone’s life is on the line. Suck it up and do your civic duty.

I believe jury duty is an awful way to decide justice and it shouldn't exist. Other countries manage without it just fine. In my opinion it's your civic duty to get out of it and not support it.

No post body was provided.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#283
post #6

Is jury nullification the ultimate trump card? From what little I know about it, it seems that if enough people in a community knew about it, they could 100% control what crimes are punished in that community. On face value, that makes a sort of sense intuitively, but obviously it has to be balanced against crimes that are in principle clearly wrong, despite what a local community believes.

> if enough people in a community knew about it, they could 100% control what crimes are punished in that community

Yes, this is why juries are democratic: on aggregate, they ensure that interpretation of the law still reflects democratic will.

But more to the point - theoretically, regular people in a community already 100% control the law.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only quote from him that I know by heart: "This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice."

First time I hear this quote, and maybe I don't know the context, but as is, it's a pretty bad quote. It implies that in that court, people care only about laws not justice. That may be so, but if that's the case, that's pretty sad, not something to be proud of.

It reminds me Scalia’s infamous Troy Davis dissent[1]:

> This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is “actually” innocent. Quite to the contrary, we have repeatedly left that question unresolved, while expressing considerable doubt that any claim based on alleged “actual innocence” is constitutionally cognizable.

i.e., Actual innocence is constitutionally irrelevant.

[1]https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/08pdf/08-1443Scalia.pd...

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#285

Some quotations... for me, the quote from Supreme Court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is important: 'The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both the law and the facts.' https://www.jurorsrule.com/quotations-and-comments-on-fully-...

This really is the meat of the question.

Trials could be set up so that a jury is presented with specific questions of fact, and they must rule on those questions of fact. "The jury finds the defendant, Bob Bobson, did enter the house of Vick Victimson between the hours of 9PM and 11PM. The jury finds the defendant, Bob Bobson, did take Vick Victimson's property. The jury finds the defendant, Bob Bobson, did push Vick Victimson down the stairs, resulting in his death."

... but they do not. Juries decide on whether the entire crime occured. Guilt or innocence. Moreover, they aren't generally required to give reasoning for rendering their verdict, and only in cases where there is no rational train of thought possible to determine a crime was committed may a judge overrule a jury's finding on the issue of guilt. The full power of finding of fact of "Did any crime occur here" is in the hands of the jury.

I know of someone who sat jury on a case involving someone shooting into a home. Jury found the defendant guilty of reckless endangerment, but the interesting thing is that the jury's reasoning on the topic was that any discharge of a firearm in a city, by virtue of the denseness of the city's population, with no backstop and no planning on where the bullet would end up, should by default be reckless endangerment. I think one could easily find folks familiar with firearms who would disagree, but it doesn't matter. The jury has the power, in that case, to decide "common sense" dictates that's what the words "reckless endangerment" mean.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people would say that when a judge has to "stretch and squeeze" a law it's a failing of the lawmaking process. And if elected lawmakers produce a clear and unambiguous law with a manifestly unjust outcome, to get that fixed society should turn to lawmakers rather than judges.

What do you mean, "has to"? The point is that judges have discretion. They might, or they might not. They don't have to do very much, even when on the wrong side of both elected politicians and justice. And sure, in an ideal world things would get fixed in the legislative branch. But can you blame anyone for going where so much of actual power is?

> What do you mean, "has to"? The point is that judges have discretion.

Well, the justice system has a number of types of discretion:

(1) Determining facts. Two first-hand accounts disagree, which do we find most believable?

(2) Discretion granted by lawmakers. This person has been found guilty of X and the law calls for a prison sentence of 3 to 15 years depending on the facts of the case, how long should the sentence be?

(3) Discretion in how to interpret the words of the law. For example, if a farmer grows wheat to feed to his own livestock, and it isn't sold and doesn't cross state lines, is that still "interstate commerce" because otherwise the farmer might have brought feed on on the national market?

You're never going to remove (1) or (2) from the legal system, of course. But some people would say (3) is a question of politics which should be resolved through the political system - not through the justice system.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#287
post #104
post #99

Does the door open to the other side, which is an all-white jury finding Ruben Carter guilty?

Yes but a judge can overrule it. A judge cannot however overrule a not-guilty verdict and find the defendant guilty.

A jury is not required to explain the reasons for their verdict. In many, probably most, cases the judge won't be able to tell that the jury convicted for improper reasons.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think jury nullification is a potential problem just wait until you hear that district attorneys have almost absolute authority to decide what crimes are punished. One person can unilaterally dictate that petty theft is no longer a crime, for example. In that lens I don’t believe jury nullification is much of a problem.

Whataboutism

Pareto principle. Focus on something that matters and is actually happening instead of nonexistent hypotheticals.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only quote from him that I know by heart: "This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice."

A terrible, self serving quote, given that it was spoken by a supreme judge. It was always a court of men, justice Holmes, not law.

I don't know. I can plausibly read it (knowing nothing about the man) as self-deprecating. A realisation that he's bound by what the law says, even if _he_ finds it unjust.

For example, if a jury finds a defendant guilty of some crime, because they really did it (let's say Aladdin stole some bread from the supermarket and it's clear beyond reasonable doubt that he did indeed), and the law dictates that the _minimum_ penalty is 10 years, then a judge is bound. It does not matter one iota that both the jury and the judge feels this punishment is excessive bordering on ridiculous; in that sense, it is 'a court of law' and not 'a court of justice'. It's not self-serving, it's self-denigrating: Awareness that the judge/jury can't just decide together how to proceed.

That's what jury nullification is about: If a jury member realizes the judge is going to be forced to give a to them utterly ridiculous sentence if the jury finds the defendant guilty, you can simply decide to find them not guilty even though you are well convinced beyond reasonable doubt that they are. Now they are meting out justice and flaunting the law. The jury can actually get away with this (as this news article again shows); a judge absolutely wouldn't be able to.

NB: Current SCOTUS seems to just do whatever the heck they feel like, flaunting all plausible readings of a given law, deference to expertise, and precedence (e.g. how modern SCOTUS opinions often write that Stare Decisis is meaningless – saying that it matters "unless it was wrongly decided" is a euphemism for "it does not matter", of course). So specifically modern day SCOTUS? They seem to think they are beyond the law. It also shows how I really, really don't think you _want_ a court to think itself a court of justice, meeting out excessive punishments because they feel that is just, and letting defendants clearly guilty of egregious acts go free or nearly so for some imagined reason. It also means that any clash with the law has utterly unpredictable consequences. By definition, minimum and maximum penalties clash with the notion that a court is 'a court of justice' instead of 'a court of law'.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#290
post #6

Is jury nullification the ultimate trump card? From what little I know about it, it seems that if enough people in a community knew about it, they could 100% control what crimes are punished in that community. On face value, that makes a sort of sense intuitively, but obviously it has to be balanced against crimes that are in principle clearly wrong, despite what a local community believes.

It’s not the ultimate trump card because a judge can still issue a directed verdict or a judgment as a matter of law which is basically when the judge says “no reasonable jury could have examined the evidence and come to that conclusion”.

IIUC, unless a defendant waives their right to a jury trial, a directed verdict may only ever be "not guilty." Otherwise, it's a violation of the Constitutional right to trial by jury.
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