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I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

going-medieval.com

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Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#281

Post by salawat »

jvanderbot wrote: post #270
politelemon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue. Your statement reeks of colonialist attitudes of seeing natives of other lands as some sort of brutes and degenerates living in destitution in poverty. Your statements reek of nationalism and revisionist history, viewing the past through black-and-white-and-rose tinted glasses,…

Arguing across an ocean about the validity of anecdotal bathing practices is not the transhumanist future I though ubiquitous internet would provide. But what did I expect...

I actually find this refreshing, and a reminder of the types of arguments that gave the internet it's original charm.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#282

Post by happyopossum »

tlogan wrote: post #260

Here are some contra points: - Aztecs were burning incense around the conquistadors to hide their unpleasant body odor (documented) - The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden - the pope instructed all public bath to be closed - The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year - general decline of the cities caused that a lot of public baths to be closed. Rome had none in medieval time. - Mu…

Addressed in the article - the church’s opposition to bathing came much later than the medieval period according to the author.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#283

Post by happyopossum »

taeric wrote: post #280
fian wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike many (but not all) other animals, humans spend considerable time in close proximity to other humans in enclosed spaces. If you are pungent, other people in an enclosed space with you will not appreciate your smell. I've done quite a few multi week hikes with only fresh water bathing (no soap, no deodorant) with others (2-18 other people). During the hikes we are outdoors and although we gather reasonably close…

Body oder is an odd one. I saw a sibling post talk about skin biome and I feel that has was more traction than it is credited. As an example, I can definitely develop body oder. However, it generally takes me longer than the rest of my family. I can do 30 miles on my bike and just need to change clothes. And I basically never use deodorant. To see this at a notional level, consider that deodorant is not common in Jap…

Everyone I’ve ever met who thinks they don’t stink, does.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#284

Post by BbzzbB »

Vetch wrote: post #190
politelemon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue. Your statement reeks of colonialist attitudes of seeing natives of other lands as some sort of brutes and degenerates living in destitution in poverty. Your statements reek of nationalism and revisionist history, viewing the past through black-and-white-and-rose tinted glasses,…

The original phrasing could be worked on but it's not so far out as you say either. > passing blame for current problems Humans think we're special but we're still slightly more complicated networked state machines. This means the issue of metastability, where a pathological state is entered and maintains even with the triggering stimulus removed, due to sustaining effects such as fitness criteria given rampant corru…

Disclaimer: I know way too little about history of present-day India, I'm not looking to argue with anyone.

But is what you're linking what GP is talking of? Because this is over 2k years old, while it's interesting it doesn't validate or invalidate living conditions of pre-colonial India. Wouldn't it be like linking to an article on propsperity from peak Roman empire when discussing much more recent feudalist Europe? Roman influence on Europe (and beyond) abound, but some early positive characteristics of it's statehood have been long gone by medieval times. And I thought the thread was on recent(ish) history.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#285

Post by happyopossum »

UncleMeat wrote: post #241
goto11 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The writer presents little numbers on prevalence. It is probably impossible to provide such numbers. The best we can do is study the sources, which suggest bathing was a common occurrence.

Not just probably impossible. Imagine if you wanted to obtain information about the bathing habits of people today. Where would that information come from? The universe doesn't simply provide it. People have to collect it! The do polling . Polling for bathing behavior wasn't a thing in the medieval period. It isn't like the numbers existed and were lost, they never existed in the first place.

> Where would that information come from

The observance that every house in the US has bathing facilities, even housing built for poor people.

The observance of building codes requiring bathing facilities exist in all new housing built in order to get a permit.

That’s just 2 items off the top of my head…

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#286

Post by webmobdev »

kgeist wrote: post #78

I thought it varied by country, class, etc. I remember reading that Anna of Kiev (if I'm not mistaken), after visiting France, had a culture shock that French aristocracy smelled badly, apparently due to inadequate bathing.

One of the kings believed water spread diseases, and asked everyone in his court to avoid bathing - The Smelly History of French Royals at the Palace of Versailles - https://historyofyesterday.com/the-smelly-history-of-french-... ... Marie Antoinette hit by ‘flying human poo’ at Palace of Versailles - https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1562426/marie-antoinett...

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#287

Post by msravi »

unmole wrote: post #130
andrekandre wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste? afaik untouchables as a concept was mostly enacted around (british) colonial rule (when they instituted the caste system we see even to today), so might not apply to the time period they are talking about... (happy to be corrected on this if i misunderstand)

> afaik untouchables as a concept was mostly enacted around (british) colonial rule (when they instituted the caste system we see even to today), so might not apply to the time period they are talking about... This is revisionist nonsense. Ancient texts, both sacred and secular both describe a extant caste system.

Um, no, they don't. They describe a jaati system, and a varna system, both of which do not take the same meaning as caste. The british conflated the two, and invented caste.

The jaati system was a system of hereditary professional guilds - so you'd have different jaatis for accountants (Kulkarnis for example), farmers (Vokkaligas), teachers (Upaadhyayas), etc. The professional skill was jealously guarded and generally not open to outsiders.

And then you had the varna system which literally means category. This categorized people into 4 categories - Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras based on their nature and actions, NOT profession. This was not hereditary.

The british had zero idea of this, conflated jaati and varna into "caste" and made it rigid by bringing out voluminous reports that classified each jaati into a varna!

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#288

Post by LtWorf »

tlogan wrote: post #267
kgeist wrote: post #99

The Old Norse word for Saturday, laugardagr, literally means "washing day". This custom still survives here in countryside Eastern Europe where many people routinely go to sauna (banya) every Saturday (or Sunday like my family). Before the 20th century, a lot of Eastern Europe (especially Russia) still lived like they lived in the middle ages: 95% of the country were serfs on feudal property living in traditional woo…

But Nordic countries become Christian just in 12th century. And it took considerably longer for actual Christian beliefs to establish themselves among the people in these regions. So all these “don’t bath” nonsense promoted by pope was ignored (like, Pope Innocent IV passed the verdict against Frederick II of being a heathen. The first accusation on his list was the King bathed daily.) In short, people did not wanted…

Do you have a source for this?

I could find nothing written in Italian about this.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#289

Post by hnfong »

allendoerfer wrote: post #149
kumarvvr wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is also a bog standard description of Christianity and a bunch of other religions. I never said India is special in this regard. >Bullshit. Just the history of England and France alone are packed full of wealthy and privileged people focusing their life on the pursuit of enlightenment (spiritual, artistic, and/or scientific) and giving up pre-arranged lives of power and wealth. Name 2 kings or monarchs who did…

> Where does it say in Christianity or Islam that this world is an illusion, Christianity is very obviously all about eternal live in heaven with god. That's the main selling point: Your suffering on earth is not actually the real thing and you do not have to be afraid of death. You do not have to worry. Also something, something, love is good. That is how it gets sold. > that there is one god, that all paths lead to…

(I am not taking sides, just to comment on a minor point here)

> > or that the soul inside you is the very same god you pray to ?

> Literally in Genesis. And god created men in his own image.

An "image of God" is not "God" itself, just as a JPG photo of you is not the "real" you. In Christian traditions the only person who is simultaneously human and "God" is Jesus, and he's the only one so far. The average Christian is encouraged to pray to external deities (Jesus, God, Mary, Saints, etc.) instead of recognizing the deity within. My understanding is that the eastern philosophies that the GP refers to consider the soul of every human literally equivalent to god, or at least an integral part of such. I think there's a substantial difference here, even if some concepts overlap at the edges.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#290

Post by goto11 »

tlogan wrote: post #260

Here are some contra points: - Aztecs were burning incense around the conquistadors to hide their unpleasant body odor (documented) - The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden - the pope instructed all public bath to be closed - The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year - general decline of the cities caused that a lot of public baths to be closed. Rome had none in medieval time. - Mu…

> Aztecs were burning incense around the conquistadors to hide their unpleasant body odor (documented)

The article specifically mention that people tend to confuse medieval and early modern periods when it comes to things like this. But conquistadors was early modern.

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