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Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

theintercept.com

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Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#281

My next door neighbor (we share a wall) had their bicycles stolen twice, so they installed Ring (floodlight) cameras in both the backyard and the front porch. After a year, the cameras have yielded no added security, or caught any "bad guys" as far as I can tell and from what they told me. What I realized, is they use it to keep track of their kids, funny cat videos that trigger the recording, and most importantly, a…

This is one of the perennial tug-of-wars in the general principle "Your rights end where my nose begins."

If you're emitting pressure waves or reflecting radiation flux and it crosses into my property, am I allowed to record and analyze it? And both the law and morality basically say "kinda, maybe, I dunno, depends." To wit: it's generally considered gauche to take photographs of you doing harmless things in your backyard, but if you're building a meth lab back there, you can be certain a neighbor will take photos and submit them as evidence. But how do they know it's a meth lab without looking in the first place?

The rights and responsibilities around data storage and analysis are context-specific and complicated.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A middle option could be to install a fake ring camera as a deterrent without the privacy hazards.

You could do that. The cheapest and easiest option is just to get yard signs saying that you are recording 24/7. Nest, Ring, and others sell there. There are plenty of generic ones too. If you want to use video cameras as a deterrent, you need to make sure people think you actually have them. I sometimes see people with their cameras pretty well hidden. That's not going to work as a deterrent!

I use both strategies. I have an obvious camera on my porch pointed at my front door. I also have a camera hidden in a bush near the opposite side of the porch. Any potential troublemaker turning away from the obvious camera gives me a perfect view of their face from the hidden one.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burglars are not deterred by cameras or alarm systems, especially in the age of face masks. They know they will only be in the house for 5 mins or less and face masks make it harder to identify them.

This makes me wonder, what is a burglar in 2022 stealing? We have no jewelry or cash in our house. We have a nice TV, but in the age of $250 4k TVs I can't imagine most burglars would chance breaking into a house to get a valuable TV. The kid's iPads are ancient and mostly worthless, we've got no game systems, no fancy cameras, no stereo. The small handful of valuables we have are either stored in an obscure enough p…

What modern thieves steal are the same thing they have always stolen; items that are resellable. Go to your local pawn shop and you'll see what attracts thieves. Video game systems, power tools, amps, guitars, routers, and tons of bicycles.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#284

My next door neighbor (we share a wall) had their bicycles stolen twice, so they installed Ring (floodlight) cameras in both the backyard and the front porch. After a year, the cameras have yielded no added security, or caught any "bad guys" as far as I can tell and from what they told me. What I realized, is they use it to keep track of their kids, funny cat videos that trigger the recording, and most importantly, a…

I've wrote about it before on HN, but a local busybody saw me committing the crime of walking down the street in my own neighborhood on their Ring camera and used that as pretext for calling the cops on me, who then harassed me for being "suspicious" without having actually looked at the footage themselves at all. Unsurprisingly, I am not a fan of the surveillance state that's found itself at my literal doorstep.

For what it's worth, that same neighbor could have called the cops to harass you after seeing you walking with their own eyeballs, or the ancient art of lying to the cops that they saw anything at all. The presence of the Ring in this story adds nothing to the risk scenario

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#285

My next door neighbor (we share a wall) had their bicycles stolen twice, so they installed Ring (floodlight) cameras in both the backyard and the front porch. After a year, the cameras have yielded no added security, or caught any "bad guys" as far as I can tell and from what they told me. What I realized, is they use it to keep track of their kids, funny cat videos that trigger the recording, and most importantly, a…

I asked them to point their front porch camera so that it doesn't record my front driveway

Ring also lets you set up privacy blocks on recorded footage, so you could ask them to black out your driveway.

I did that with the camera that shows my driveway, due to the curve of the driveway, it also shows part of the neighbor's house, so I blacked out their windows in the camera feed. I sent them a screenshot and asked if they wanted me to black out their entire yard, but they were fine with my video capturing any activity in their little used side yard.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#286

My next door neighbor (we share a wall) had their bicycles stolen twice, so they installed Ring (floodlight) cameras in both the backyard and the front porch. After a year, the cameras have yielded no added security, or caught any "bad guys" as far as I can tell and from what they told me. What I realized, is they use it to keep track of their kids, funny cat videos that trigger the recording, and most importantly, a…

> Amazon isn't exactly the king of privacy

Is there something specific you’re talking about?

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#288
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter. But that's one among many sufficient reasons: I also think it's indicative of an economic and social policy that encourages civic alienation and delocalization. The more snappy way of saying it: we're maximizing short term advantages (any plastic crap I want in 48 hours, shareholder value) at the cost of long term advantages (cities and towns worth living in, a sense of community rooted in part in support…

Is it always wrong to prioritize a short term advantage over a long term advantage? > cities and towns worth living in Like-- this is something America has really just not understood how to do. It doesn't have much to do with e-commerce (which is still popular in places that do know how to do it). > a sense of community rooted in part in supporting local businesses Sometimes having a strong local business is great. B…

> Is it always wrong to prioritize a short term advantage over a long term advantage?

Nope! But I think this is an instance where the long term advantage is much more "important" (morally, sociologically) than the short term one. You're welcome to disagree, naturally, but I think there's a growing sociological/sociopolitical consensus that our current mode of life and consumption is overwhelmingly unsustainable.

You're completely right that this just isn't something the US is good at, full stop. But I see the proliferation of delivery as part-and-parcel of the problem, rather than an unrelated phenomenon that somewhat ameliorates local issues. In other words: e-commerce thrives because we've economically primed it to thrive via other bad social and economic decisionmaking.

> But in the best case, you're limited by the tastes and curation choices of a small number of vendors-- you lose the value of the long tail. And in the worst case, you find yourself beholden to an actively exploitative and/or hostile supplier.

This is true, and it's part of the tradeoff. But I'll note: in sufficiently dense cities, this collapses back in on itself. From my apartment, I can walk to my choice of a dozen independent grocers, hardware stores, &c.

And it's not as if Amazon doesn't reflect this as well: my understanding is that much of the current Amazon experience is sifting through rebrands of the same basic product (especially in the context of consumer electronics, where it's all the same IC/SoC in a different plastic case). If that isn't an exploitation of diminished choice, I don't know what is!

> We're personally safer and more secure in our effects than in any time before in US history (well, the best point was a decade ago, but still-- we're about the same as then). It has nothing to do with surveillance or e-commerce, and only minimally has to do with suburbia vs. city living.

Absolutely right again. I should have said "the perception of safety," which perversely has tracked against actual safety. I lay a lot of the "blame" for that at the feet of forces that encourage civic alienation (again, car-centric living, decline of local businesses, &c.).

> I bet I could look at a choice that you've made and I'd recoil from it as wasteful and repugnant, too.

I'm positive that you could! That's why I'm trying to avoid an individual critique, as such -- I don't blame people living in suburbs, or for shopping on Amazon, or for driving everywhere. The economic incentives are all right for those things, and I have my own economic incentives that push me to do things that are absolutely wasteful and repugnant. The critique instead is directed as the incentive structures themselves which, if we can collapse or undermine them, will hopefully result in better human action without the stress and tears of a blame session.

(I also appreciate your indulgence. I definitely started out with some extra snark, and the fact that you tolerated it is a testament to fairness and levelheadedness when you could have rightfully ignored me.)

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#289
post #128
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The camera may be acting as a deterrent (if they didn't have any additional thefts) without it being obvious. I never would give a neighbor a hard time about a camera pointing at a publicly visible spot on my property- just into windows and other semi-private locations. That includes both audio and video. I ascribe to the "it's legal for journalists to go through your trash, so if you want privacy, shred your trash f…

> I never would give a neighbor a hard time about a camera pointing at a publicly visible spot on my property In Germany people have successfully sued their neighbours for that and I fully agree with the courts. Filming others without consent is invasive.

Germany's entire threat model, at a cultural level, is 100% different from the US due to differing histories. Germany is concerned about how networks of tattle-tale can be used by fascists to organize oppression. Americans are concerned about how crime flourishes in the unobserved corners of urban environments.

These are both, basically, bogeymen. But the German bogeyman is the Nazis returning and the American bogeyman is the transient murderer.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#290

My next door neighbor (we share a wall) had their bicycles stolen twice, so they installed Ring (floodlight) cameras in both the backyard and the front porch. After a year, the cameras have yielded no added security, or caught any "bad guys" as far as I can tell and from what they told me. What I realized, is they use it to keep track of their kids, funny cat videos that trigger the recording, and most importantly, a…

I've wrote about it before on HN, but a local busybody saw me committing the crime of walking down the street in my own neighborhood on their Ring camera and used that as pretext for calling the cops on me, who then harassed me for being "suspicious" without having actually looked at the footage themselves at all. Unsurprisingly, I am not a fan of the surveillance state that's found itself at my literal doorstep.

Sounds like your real problem is your neighbor being a jerk. If they didn't have Ring that wouldn't stop them from calling the cops on a "suspicious" person.
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