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Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

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Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#281

For those judging Indian government through these comments should understand that majority of Indians are happy with the government and elections in India are as fair as in the USA :) . The ones who are unhappy with the government and feel disempowered are more motivated to post in a forum where someone would read their grievances.

The "majority" of Indians watch and read from a small set of media outlets, most of them biased pro-government news media which feed only news showing the Indian government and authorities in a positive light while completely leaving out their problems. Basically, news confirming their biases. Critical journalism is pretty much marginal and niche - these outlets are fewer because there are very little incentives. The…

> There are a few like NDTV and Dainik bhaskar, who routinely face sanctions by governmental bodies for not sticking to the governmental narrative.

The founder of NDTV is a communist, his sister in law and her husband are members of the 'politburo' of one of the communist parties in India [1]. NDTV is effectively a mouthpiece of the left-wing Congress and Communist parties of India.

[1] https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/who-is-brinda-karat-al...

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but We need focus now on Hindu Terrorism. That's the major threat to the country and the world.

Can you give examples from the world where they have killed people or been involved in violence in general in the name of religion? There is sufficient Hindu diaspora outside, so this comment seems extremely uncalled for.

[dead]

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#283
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but We need focus now on Hindu Terrorism. That's the major threat to the country and the world.

Exactly. No one is talking about how a Muslim tailor was killed by a bunch of Hindus and brazenly captured in video which also threatened the country's PM of a similar fate. The Hindu community then proceeded to pelt stones on the Police which came to arrest the killers.

remember akhlaq who was killed for allegation of eating beef, by hindu terrorists of india? Remember the hindu terrorist shambhu lal regar, who killed a man on live facebook, then proceeded to burn his body.

it's high time the world recognizes this issue and places security concerns in respective countries for people having such bent of mind.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#284
post #201
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, if all of the above is true, then one can imagine that this very HN submission might be the work of a member of the Indian government/police wanting to increase pressure on Razorpay by applying negative PR to the company. Post-truth world is not pretty.

There's another comment providing more context; Razorpay is facing flak from some folks because it gave up transaction/donor data for a journalist's company. (Razorpay is the payment provider for the journalist's company AltNews) The India government is actually trying their best to persecute the journalist (Mohd. Zubair) and putting pressure on Razorpay to get to AltNews/Zubair. (The govt. is trying to insinuate tha…

Umm. Only it's not an allegation anymore. The 'journalist' in question already admitted to receiving foreign donations without having the necessary compliance registrations in place.

This is also leaving out the part that this 'journalist' doctored a video about a person and posted it that is causing islamists to give the person beheading threats. 2 people who supported her have already been beheaded. This 'journalist' also has several allegations of fake news of his own. So it's not so black and white.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The account I have used is more than a year old. I would be harassed by Hindutva goons online and offline if I use my real identity. Maybe also a false police case. Also Razorpay is not innocent here. They could have disputed the demand in the court. Could have informed the users that their data was shared with government. Could have shared only the transactions that originated in a foreign country.They did none of t…

Razorpay is innocent here. What kind of language is Hindutva Goons? Indian law is applicable at Indian soil as American law is applicable soil. American financial law are very similar for 3rd party companies. You have clear intent to hurt Razorpay brand value. Let’s say if a CEO support country top leader and there is nothing wrong in it. He is Indian citizen and it’s his choice to do so. I have donated several found…

>You can’t dispute with police under this section given section 91 is a rare section.

This is not true. There is enough precedence where this was successfully disputed. Including by Google and Amazon in India. Would Apple turn in all the records if a police officer asks for any data they seem fit for an investigation?

Re Hindutva:, there is enough literature online to educate you about it. https://cjp.org.in/tag/hindutva/

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because (1) the poster is anonymous Please rethink this criterion. Those of us who live under authoritarian regimes have to be cautious to protect us from both our governments and members of our society who support them.

Not in the case of an obvious attack. Anonymous cowards I have a problem with, anonymous people who share important information because otherwise their lives are in danger is a different story but this is - contrary to the claims of the author - not one of those, it is simply a very thinly disguised hitpiece. And I'm saying that as someone who has been pretty critical of YC when it comes to certain ethics issues, whi…

(Part 1)

I don't see it as a hitpiece. A hitpiece is when the main intention is to hurt a reputation. But any damage to reputation here is a secondary consequence of this company's actions that deviate from a moral and legal standard that a section of society wants companies to practise. It's no different from the posts that complain about Google bots blocking access to gmail accounts without redressal - we don't consider them hitpieces though they damage Google's reputation.

OP's intentions, IMO, are to bring to the IT community's attention, this situation where people may face penalties for doing a moral good (donating to a fact-checking service to fight disinformation) and for having their personal data handed to a malicious government without even token resistance.

Since social issues with data privacy and government intimidation aspects have been discussed here before, perhaps they thought this is a suitable forum. Everything OP said about the case and company's actions are factually correct for which they provided supporting links.

The only thing I disagree in the post is the inclusion of YC. I don't think YC could have done, can do, or even should do, ideological policing. "YC company" can be removed from the post because it's irrelevant. But without it, this post may never have been upvoted because western audiences don't know about Razorpay, a local Indian company.

On anonymity and cowardice, I feel you are belittling the entire philosophies of anonymity and whistleblowing that have legal backing even in western democracies.

Plus, there is no upside to revealing one's name when living in a malicious society where online mobs carry out intimidation campaigns, and law and courts don't are not seen as protectors. If OP reveals their name, it may persuade you but what benefit do they actually get?

Nonetheless, if you are strictly against cowardice in all forms, please remember that individuals are not the only cowards here:

1) Razorpay, a well-funded organization with lawyers, handed over data without even a murmur of protest or legal resistance. There are always legal loopholes to at least stall or make the cops work a bit harder. But they tried none of that.

2) The Indian government has overwhelming voter and ideological support, and practically limitless executive powers. Yet it funds disinformation and propaganda networks hiding behind a huge network of anonymous social media accounts, and cracks down hard on individuals who dissent or protest, a minority in our society.

I hope your disdain for cowards is not selective against the least powerful.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because (1) the poster is anonymous Please rethink this criterion. Those of us who live under authoritarian regimes have to be cautious to protect us from both our governments and members of our society who support them.

Not in the case of an obvious attack. Anonymous cowards I have a problem with, anonymous people who share important information because otherwise their lives are in danger is a different story but this is - contrary to the claims of the author - not one of those, it is simply a very thinly disguised hitpiece. And I'm saying that as someone who has been pretty critical of YC when it comes to certain ethics issues, whi…

> their lives are in danger is a different story but this is - contrary to the claims of the author - not one of those

Yes, it can seem unlikely to outsiders who haven't observed the behavior of Indian outrage mobs on Twitter, Whatsapp, etc. There's a frightening arbitrariness and unpredictable lack of logic in their behavior. One never knows what triggers them. But once triggered, they go all in with doxxing, death threats, rape threats, online bullying, threat calls, and similar. So the best option is to stay silent all the time. The second best is to murmur our troubles to sympathetic audiences from anonymous accounts. If we were to criticize Indian government and it makes it to the Twitter/Whatsapp mob ecosystem, here's a small sample of the outcomes:

1. Police arrested a muslim woman after a complaint by a hindutva activist for posting this WhatsApp status on Pakistan’s Republic Day: “May God bless every nation with peace, unity and harmony”. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/mudhol-woma...

2. Police lodged complaint Against Two Minor Muslim Boys for Listening to a Pakistani Song. The FIR against the teenagers was lodged on the complaint of a local hindu, who objected to their playing the song which praised the neighbouring country. https://scroll.in/latest/1021926/two-muslim-boys-detained-fo...

3. Gujarat legislator Arrested Over Tweets Criticising Modi. The arrest was over recent tweets after communal violence in Gujarat, in which Mevani had called Prime Minister Narendra Modi a supporter of Nathuram Godse, who assassinated M.K. Gandhi. https://thewire.in/politics/gujarat-mla-jignesh-mevani-arres...

4. Delhi university professor Held Over 'Objectionable' Post on Gyanvapi. https://www.thequint.com/news/india/du-professor-ratan-lal-a...

5. Complaint Against Alt News‘ co-founder Mohammed Zubair for Calling Militant Hindutva Leaders 'Hatemongers'. https://thewire.in/government/fir-against-mohammed-zubair-fo...

6. Physics Lecturer Held After Rightwing Activists Complain he Insulted 'Sanatan Dharma' https://thewire.in/rights/silchar-physics-santan-dharma-arre...

7. Police lodge complaint against Assam Professor Over Facebook Joke on Ram and Modi. He never mentioned Ram or Modi in his tweet, but still the complaint was accepted by police. https://thewire.in/rights/after-abvp-complaint-fir-against-a...

8. Woman gets rape threats for tweeting on Dipa Karmakar’s gymanstics in Rio olympics. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/jaipur-woman-gets-...

In this discussion, redditors discuss how to intimidate ideological opponents ("antinationals") by complaining to government security ministry : https://www.reddit.com/r/indiadiscussion/comments/s2ppyh/a_c... -

I can provide many more examples of such incidents. There are a few every week.

I hope this gives some context to our fears. They may look irrational from the outside but are very rational to us.

Whether to sacrifice our peace of mind for the good of a society that doesn't like us is an ethical dilemma many of us have not fully resolved. Zubair resolved that dilemma by dropping anonymity and paid the price with imprisonment.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give examples from the world where they have killed people or been involved in violence in general in the name of religion? There is sufficient Hindu diaspora outside, so this comment seems extremely uncalled for.

[dead]

and these are from outside India like you were claiming?

My point was there was sufficient Hindu diaspora outside but it has not been involved with violence of religious nature and are mostly considered model minorities.

The problem in India is well known, and it is an actual issue there. Although, I will add all of the events you mentioned have precursor events to them as well; not that that justifies anything.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to remind you that ever since the current government came into power, the number of terrorist attacks in the major cities has drastically dropped. At one point of time, it used to be regular news to hear about the jihadists bombing places. I was about 8 or 9 when there was a bomb blast quite close to my house in Hyderabad. That was about 10 years ago. Folks in the west appear to condemn others but not th…

But that reduction in foreign terror attacks happened all over the world. The Mumbai terror attack was followed by similar attacks in Paris where civilians going about their day were targeted. That wave of terror is over, probably because ISIS and AQ are no longer the force they used to be. Now it’s domestic terror and social polarization. Don’t think these laws are the reason why foreign terror attacks reduced.

The groups you mentioned have little to do with India. Some of the groups responsible in India were dealt with and some are still active mostly outside now.
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