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Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

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Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autopilot should be fixed, but the problem in your scenario is people trailing others too closely. If you fail phantom braking, you're going to fail real braking whether it's activated by a computer or not.

Safe trailing distance is determined by safe driving expecations. If everybody in the world started doing hard and sudden brakes, then the safe trailing distance would be extended. While ideally everybody would always leave enough space for hard and sudden brakes (eg in case a deer runs across a road), the reality is that driving has a lot of loose rules, and you're expected to behave rationally and similarly to the…

> Safe trailing distance is determined by safe driving expecations.

Respectfully, it's not. A safe trailing distance is defined as enough room for you to stop even if the car in front of you stops abruptly (for example, if a kid or animal runs into the street), factoring in your reaction time and the stopping distance of your vehicle. The buffer isn't for normal variations in the speed of traffic, it's for anomalies.

> the reality is that driving has a lot of loose rules, and you're expected to behave rationally and similarly to the other drivers on the road

This isn't a valid excuse for unsafe following.

> Driving is an intricate social dance with millions of actors, and if you are the one acting way out of line, you are liable

I'm not sure what sense you mean "liable" here, but it's certainly not true in the legal sense--you're liable if you violate the law, for example, by following too closely (the law doesn't seem to care whether others follow too closely or not).

> An autonomous system with well defined behaviors, less ambiguity, and less social guesswork, would probably be safer.

It doesn't require full participation, it merely requires fewer fatalities caused per 1M miles than human drivers. That's the point at which we should legalize AI, and if it becomes significantly safer, that's the point at which we should mandate AI in the general case. And then something really interesting happens--we can start to do away with those ambiguities that make AI hard because human drivers become the exception rather than the rule. Rather than informal social systems governing driving, driving becomes a formal digital protocol. Maybe rather than relying on computer vision (or computer vision alone) cars are loaded with a national database containing the right-of-way rules, speed limits, scheduled maintenance, etc and/or they use other sensors. These things in turn make AI safer (discrete signals = fewer failures due to computer vision errors). Safe and ubiquitous AI could lead to much narrower roads, freeing up more space for pedestrian traffic.

Moreover, since cars are safer, they don't need to be so heavily armored--rather, they become smaller and lighter, which further increases safety by increasing survivability in pedestrian- or cyclist-involved accidents.

Moreover, those strict protocols could make transportation more efficient (a given road increases its throughput and latency for a without increasing lanes or compromising safety) because (1) cars are smaller and lighter as previously discussed, (2) AI can travel faster with less buffer due to its increased reaction times, and (3) because AI can coordinate so you don't have inefficient traffic patterns like "4 semis driving in quadruple file" or "one reckless ass hat changing lanes frequently, abruptly, and aggressively, causing everyone to slow down".

Without human drivers, maybe taxis become cost-competitive with public transit (or better) and fewer people need to own a car (and the cars they own needn't be so large since one can easily and cheaply rent a larger car for transporting large items). And for those who do own their own car, those cars can drop them off at their destination and park farther away (no need for so much parking downtown).

This is all just a sketch of some of the possibilities, but the point is that there's a horizon (a critical mass of AI cars) that could manifest in a cascade of other significant changes.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#283
post #158
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What behavior are you referring to? Automatic Emergency Braking. You cannot turn off AEB persistently. > I'm not aware of any feature that requires me to accelerate or brake to prevent the car from stopping itself Before the car emergency brakes, it will warn you via "Forward Collision Warning"; the screen will show the object it thinks you're about to hit in red. You can set this to "Late" to reduce false positive…

This article is about autopilot phantom braking, not AEB. I've never had AEB trigger, or heard of it triggering when it shouldn't, but maybe I'm unaware.

Phantom braking includes self-driving/cruise and ADAS, e.g. "What is phantom braking"

> Phantom braking is a term used to describe when an advanced driver assistance system (ADAS) – or a self-driving system – applies the brakes for no good reason

(AEB is part of ADAS)

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a brake check if the person in front of you is slowing down and your braking is to maintain safe distance. A brake check is braking for the purpose of affecting those behind you. It seems clear he means it is braking due to the slow down ahead.

> A brake check is braking for the purpose of affecting those behind you. Intent doesn't matter to the person in the other car, who likely is relying on your behavior to some extend to understand traffic ahead. If your driving seems like a brake check and brings in all of the unsafe conditions associated with brake checking, then it's a brake check.

Unfortunately that just shows the person following was not doing so at a safe distance - any car you're driving behind could perform emergency braking at any moment.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be interested in seeing if there statistics of automobile safety in the US before and after Nader, compared to the equivalent statistics in Europe. I have a suspicion that the progression in car safety is a more global phenomenon

Likely the US implicitly sets the standards for other markets since it’s easier to build one platform.

It’s illegal to sell European cars in America and vice versa, without making special versions.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#286
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering way more people use crosswalks than walk across the middle of the street It is impossible to find good data on this, so I don't understand why you're using a tone of certainty in this assertion. Anecdotally, I find this difficult to believe; it seems to me that the opposite is true (at least here in St. Pete, Florida). > Following the traditional road safety advice keeps kids very safe: Use the crosswal…

> You got me. I'm a wealthy lobbyist for big bike. I'm sorry I didn't disclose this earlier. Bike lobby huh? Usually the anti-car position is motivated by environmentalism, or the social/economic inequalities inherent to car culture that have been baked into our public infrastructure. Those would all be much better reasons than the number of children killed by cars, but bike lobby... I guess that works too. While it'…

In case my sarcasm fell short of the obviousness for which I had aimed:

I do not work for a bike lobby, nor do I have any direct interest in the outcomes of these policies except extending the life of my kiddo and his friends.

I have no specific axe to grind. It's just absolutely obvious to me, from extensive travel through 49 of the United States, that children face dramatic and unprovoked hostility from the infrastructure through many of their cities.

The streets feel like they are literally made for cars instead of people. If you don't get that impression, then I really wonder what makes our perspectives so different.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#287
post #25

I think Elon needs to open source the braking flowchart…

There is a long list of things that work poorly and would be nice to change out with something that works. UI - Just let me integrate 3rd party apps finally. Deeprain - My car likes to run the wipers on a perfectly dry sunny day sometimes. To my great vexing annoyance. Autoheadlights - Its just bad. On off, on off constantly. Deepsleep - Car just doesn't want to wake up sometimes. Either on entry or when accessing it…

Don’t forget the wipers..POS logic.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think gp was referencing the hypocrisy in Musk’s demands to open source Twitter’s recommendation algorithm

they did a piss poor job of making a reference then

He keeps throwing stones at other folks glass houses.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brake checking is (usually) illegal in the US, albeit hard to prove without a dash cam or witnesses. So no, it's not the case that people trailing too closely is the problem. It's the case of the Tesla requiring, without good reason, the car behind them to brake hard to avoid the collision. This is dangerous and (usually) illegal.

Teslas or people in general people should absolutely not break-check, but no, cars that drive so close to the car in front that they cannot safely stop in an emergency are tailgating. I do agree there is some nuance, but it really saddens me that so many comments in this thread are supportive of a form of driving that, while very common, is unsafe for themselves and others. It's a form of normalisation of deviance an…

In metropolitan areas (where I imagine most Teslas are driven), it often just isn’t possible to maintain a textbook-safe following distance. The instant you allow more than the average distance ahead of you, another car will jump in to fill the gap.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think abrupt braking constitutes reckless driving (maybe it varies by location), and it seems like it would be pretty easy to fight by claiming you saw a deer/etc in the road. If the cop says he didn't see it, you respond with some variation of "unsurprising because you were following me too closely to see anything else". Of course, none of this absolves Tesla from fixing their software.

I can't imagine a cop anywhere in the world responding well to the phrase "unsurprising because you were following me too closely," especially if s/he already thinks you were brake checking them!

By the time you're fighting the ticket, it doesn't much matter how the cop reacts.
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