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NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

nysenate.gov

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Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#281
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gets "good" care here? Senators and millionaires definitely do. But, most people don't get good care, many people are missing essential care (dental), and everyone has to wait. Often months. We in the US pay more per capita for worse care than most other developed nations (Canada/UK/Nordic countries). Name your country where the care is worse than the US please and let us know how much they pay for it per capita…

You ever been to a Canadian hospital?

Yeah, I've also had friends and family go. No complaints.

Why do you ask?

Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#282

Coming from a country that has this, there should be caution: it gets more affordable, but you get what you pay for. In my country of origin, you get a partially-paid-for ride to the emergency room, where you pay for things like casts, non-ward rooms, dental care out of pocket. There is no prescription coverage. There is no optometry coverage. I would wait significant chunks of a year for procedures and diagnostics.…

I live in Iceland. ETR is about 40% for me but I'm in a high tax bracket. None of the Scandinavian countries even have 60% marginal tax rate. EDIT: My MTR is ~42% so my ETR can't be 40%. I don't have a payslip to calculate and searching the interwebs isn't helping a lot right now.

Same in Norway, max marginal rate caps out at almost 50%: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/rates/maximum-effective-margi...

Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#283

50% of health resources are used in the final 5 years of life. The young should not pay for the healthcare of the elderly. Society should be apportioned into different age categories, and funded separately, with a 'base' tier for all citizens and legal residents, and a higher tier for those with private or employer insurance.

> The young should not pay for the healthcare of the elderly. The same way responsible drivers should not pay for reckless ones? Or responsible homeowners shouldn't pay for reckless ones? The whole idea of insurance is to distribute the costs so that no one has to bear long tail costs alone...

> The same way responsible drivers should not pay for reckless ones? Or responsible homeowners shouldn't pay for reckless ones?

Yes, exactly. Reckless drivers and reckless homeowners should pay higher premiums, as their insurance covers a higher risk (a priori expected cost) compared to responsible drivers and responsible homeowners.

> The whole idea of insurance is to distribute the costs so that no one has to bear long tail costs alone...

The "whole idea of insurance" from the buyer's perspective is to pay a fixed premium instead of carrying risk. The value of the service, and thus the premium one is willing to pay, is determined by the risk being mitigated for each individual customer. The existence of "risk pools" is important for the insurance provider's cash flow, but a mere implementation detail to the customer. Insurance is not a subsidy or charity; if you and others like yourself are expected to cost more on average than some other group, you should expect to pay more. In a competitive insurance market those with higher risks will pay higher premiums; a company that attempted to charge everyone a flat rate would find itself either bankrupt or incapable of competing on premiums for any but the most expensive (highest-risk) customers.

Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would healthcare overall in e.g New York be equivalent though? In Canada, we have "free" healthcare but literally have no other option so it's the Soviet style mess you'd expect a government monopoly to be. But would this bar paid healthcare? Couldn't people still have health insurance and get private care? Is there something preventing that?

You're not supposed to be able to get private healthcare in Canada, but actually there are plenty of fancy clinics that will fix you up on the spot if you have money. It's all hush-hush because those in power are the primary users of that parallel system. It's not a criminal underground but an unregulated mezzanine, yes? Also, in my experience, public healthcare _can_ be quite good, but the quality of service varies…

> You're not supposed to be able to get private healthcare in Canada […]

Sure you are. There is no government monopoly on health care in Canada: if you want to cut a cheque you can get private care. Nothing illegal about it.

All (family) doctors in Canada are private businesses. It's just that most of them hook into the provincial payment system. Similarly for hospitals: they are not government run, just funded through government. If you wish to set up a private clinic and/or hospital and not take government funding, there is no legal impediment to do so.

What is legislated is that if you take provincial funding you cannot also take private funds. It's either-or.

> It's all hush-hush because those in power are the primary users of that parallel system.

It's not hush-hush, it's just most of us plebes cannot afford fancy pants clinics.

Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#285
I’m an MD who trained in NYC. I have also had emergency surgery in the NHS at one of their most prestigious hospitals in London and so I feel like I’ve seen the system a little bit from the inside.

It was far cheaper for me than it would have been as a Brit in the USA, but the standard of care was lower. They didn’t have some technical and staffing resources late in the afternoon that would be a baseline in any of the hospitals I’ve been at in the USA. The English doctors were just kind of apologetic and bashful about it, talking to someone they knew was an American doctor who knew what kind of specific diagnostic algorithm was appropriate.

The NHS hospital did have really excellent amounts of ancillary staff. Someone brought coffee and tea to me like 3-4 times a day, it wasn’t hard to get my luggage delivered to my bed, etc. Not like that in the USA from what I’ve seen.

The NYC hospitals are somewhat financially strained as it is. Especially the public hospitals (Bellevue, Elmhurst, Metropolitan).

Also related would be care at the VA hospitals, which is slower/worse than care at NYC flagship hospitals. But as a society we don’t want to prioritize or pay for good care for veterans, so it is what it is.

I predict this will continue to basically just produce a more two-tiered system in the US. Most doctors who have a choice (large group practices) will take the wealthy patients with private insurance, and the big hospitals and whomever else who don’t have a choice will be forced to accept the NY single payers (basically the existing model, where the poor and 65+ are already covered under Medicaid and Medicare already). It will likely strain these systems even further, as reimbursements from Medicaid/Medicaid are insufficient to run large health systems which depend on higher rates from private insurers (payor mix). Good luck there.

In NYC even more physicians and group practices will try to go to alternate models such as cash-only. Try being on Medicaid or Medicare and finding an outpatient psychiatrist in NYC now as it is. This will extend to more PCPs, chronic disease specialists, etc.

Some patients will get better and more affordable care, but some will also get much worse care. It will be interesting to see what happens. I’m not necessarily opposed, but this is absolutely not going to be a clear and decisive win on all fronts as some commenters are suggesting. The US healthcare system, if you have private insurance, is the best in the world already in terms of level of service and access to rapid specialty and high-end care.

Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#286
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I assume that?

>A substantial part of your rent is property taxes. Here. Without determining elasticity, it's impossible to determine how much of that cost is flowing through or how much goes to impact margin.

You're making a pretty fundamental mistake. I am not speculating about the elasticity of rent. If taxes went to 0, would rent go down? Probably not.

So what?

The percentage of rent that is taxes is exactly the amount paid in taxes by the landlord. Period. It is an absolute number.

Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're renting, your landlord is paying property tax and passing it on to you.

By that logic, no one pays taxes except consumers.

I mean you’re sort of right. There’s no such thing as a free lunch. So stuff is all ultimately paid by the consumer since that’s the end of the line.

There’s really no way to increase taxes without impacting consumers. Unless you try to limit rents, but then you have other problems with people not wanting to invest in apartment buildings.

Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do Americans always have to play a zero sum game with human lives. If a quarter of our country has the worst healthcare in the developed world that is unacceptable. Answers like this are just begging us to give up our humanity.

I have made no statements about how things should be. I have lots of opinions about how things should be, which I don't share on HN. I was making statements about how things actually are , since no discussion about how to make the world we want is likely to be meaningful or useful if there is not a shared view of what is first.

And what you focus on brings about thoughts of a zero sum game which I called out. You can safely assume I don’t agree with what you find most pertinent.

I think a country which lets some get rich off of other’s cancer is an abhorrent, indefensible, system.

Re: NY Senate Bill S5474 proposing a universal single payer health plan for NYers

#290
post #30

it will be interesting to watch NY (and/or CA) put something like this in place and observe from afar. i strongly feel that states should be much more aggressive running policy experiments if their constituents desire them, and at the national level we all get some benefit of seeing how things turn out in real time. all that said, assuming there is some tangible tax increase, NYC high earners are going to be knocking…

One of America's best ideas. Laboratories of democracy. Maybe it works.. maybe not. But the rest of us learn from whatever happens.

NY currently greatly restricts how health insurers can discriminate on price based on age to the point that age basically isn't a factor. But most states allow for a ~3x price difference based on age. The other state with a similar rule, Vermont, has a form of single payer insurance as well
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