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The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

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Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#281

Post by philliphaydon »

whimsicalism wrote: post #261
philliphaydon wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they did aggressive lockdowns. Welded people into apartments and buildings. Etc. and that absolutely contributed to lower covid numbers. But it doesn’t change the fact the reported numbers are massively censored and doctored.

Not to the tune of millions of lives. Nobody who is studying this thinks that China had millions of covid deaths and managed to hide them. Claims to the contrary are fringe conspiracy theories. The "lab leak" hypothesis is way more probable than the idea that they have hidden 3 million deaths and the associated covid spread... It's just not possible.

Sure they may have only had 80k deaths. But 4638 for 1.4b people. The largest population in the world has the lowest number is deaths and infections?

There was reports of people saying that they received their family members ashes. They weren’t even told they had died just receive ashes.

I don’t believe China would end up with the highest infection or highest deaths. People are quite content wearing masks and social distancing.

But I do believe the numbers are 10x lower than they are in reality.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#282

Post by munk-a »

mikem170 wrote: post #258
munk-a wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a problem with assuming that basic libretarian thinking is about freedom though. I personally value my and others' freedom to not be murdered over the freedom to murder people. There are an awful lot of unjust laws that can color people's view on acting as a society - but there are also quite necessary forces in there to make sure that people have the ability to live good lives. My central philosophy…

> I personally value my and others' freedom to not be murdered over the freedom to murder people. I personally think that the rule should be "don't impose on others". The murder example you used is an imposition on another person. Telling someone that they can't impose on someone else is not an imposition, it is preventing an imposition. There can be problems if we allow the majority to impose whatever they want on t…

I mostly agree with that take. I just think the discussion is more complex when we're talking about a pandemic - acting personally in a reckless manner is imposing your risks on others. Base jumping off a bridge with no expectation of medical care is a personal risk - taking the subway without a mask on when you're feeling ill in the middle of a pandemic is a shared risk.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#283

Post by Cookingboy »

fortuna86 wrote: post #211
Cookingboy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Wuhan police summoned and admonished him on 3 January And? China notified WHO and US CDC about the new virus at the end of December: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pande... >"making false comments on the Internet about unconfirmed SARS outbreak."" And he was making false comment. He was an eye doctor and he was telling people in his WeChat group that the original SARS came back. >Sure. https:…

You spend a lot of time excusing the actions of an authoritarian government (while living in what I can only assume is a free western country). Criticism of the Chinese government isn't criticism of you personally.

Criticism should be levied if they deserve criticism, which can only be evaluated based on objective facts. "We should be critical of everything they do regardless because they are an authoritarian country" is unscientific and devoid of critical thinking.

Meanwhile the free western country I live in had a million Covid death.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#284

Post by mikem170 »

munk-a wrote: post #282
mikem170 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally value my and others' freedom to not be murdered over the freedom to murder people. I personally think that the rule should be "don't impose on others". The murder example you used is an imposition on another person. Telling someone that they can't impose on someone else is not an imposition, it is preventing an imposition. There can be problems if we allow the majority to impose whatever they want on t…

I mostly agree with that take. I just think the discussion is more complex when we're talking about a pandemic - acting personally in a reckless manner is imposing your risks on others. Base jumping off a bridge with no expectation of medical care is a personal risk - taking the subway without a mask on when you're feeling ill in the middle of a pandemic is a shared risk.

I agree that the discussion about pandemic lockdowns is more complex. Good and honest people can look at the same data and disagree on how to handle something like this, even individuals who share the same age and health related covid risks. Some mitigation measures work better than others. Lockdowns have a negative impact, and this needs to be taken into account also.

I think a lot has to do with quantifying the risk. We don't mandate masks during flu season. Covid has killed 10 times as many people per year in the U.S. than a bad flu season. Somewhere in between is where we as a society have drawn the line, at least on short notice for a scary new virus. And that line is in a state of flux, given better treatments, vaccines, less deadly variants, and lockdown fatigue, etc. It seems that the numbers matter when it comes to these issues, which is why we don't lock down or mandate masks every year for the flu and other diseases.

If the numbers matter then it is a shame that the media didn't do a better job of informing people. It seems that the headlines were focused on worst case scenarios, anecdotes, and controversy at the expense of probabilities, perspective, and measurements.

Personally I wish that we could have given N95 masks, which effectively protect the wearer, to everyone who felt vulnerable and was unable to isolate.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#285

Post by dirtyid »

sharken wrote: post #250
bllguo wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about the costs of half-hearted US lockdowns that accomplished the worst of both worlds. Meanwhile China's strict lockdowns allowed them to end said lockdowns extremely quickly. Things like welding doors shut were temporary measures that let them _avoid_ things like lockdown-induced mental problems and overwhelmed medical services. Until Omicron their policies were working splendidly, with life essent…

One thing that is left out is the efficacy of the Chinese vaccines Sinovac and Sinopharm. They are simple not good enough to stop COVID, to do that the Chinese regime would have to choose an American vaccine. Which they of course never will do, so one can ask if the Chinese regime really wants the best for their citizens ? https://myacare.com/blog/comparison-of-covid-19-vaccines

[dead]

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#286

Post by philliphaydon »

whimsicalism wrote: post #261
philliphaydon wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they did aggressive lockdowns. Welded people into apartments and buildings. Etc. and that absolutely contributed to lower covid numbers. But it doesn’t change the fact the reported numbers are massively censored and doctored.

Not to the tune of millions of lives. Nobody who is studying this thinks that China had millions of covid deaths and managed to hide them. Claims to the contrary are fringe conspiracy theories. The "lab leak" hypothesis is way more probable than the idea that they have hidden 3 million deaths and the associated covid spread... It's just not possible.

https://www.ft.com/content/45f4b975-443f-44b7-92b8-5d2417491...

> If someone dies after contracting COVID-19 but had, for example, cancer, heart disease or diabetes at the time, Chinese hospitals would not classify the death as resulting from COVID-19, but the chronic illness instead, said Jin Dong-yan (金冬雁), a virologist at Hong Kong University.

> The country has recorded a mere two deaths from more than 443,000 cases since March 1, both of which occurred in Jilin – a province bordering North Korea. Yet, according to a report, several people directly informed the Finanical Times directly that their relatives in Shanghai had passed away after contracting the disease.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#287

Post by whimsicalism »

jtc331 wrote: post #90
whimsicalism wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I think that avoiding 3 million deaths might be worthy of some level of praise but agree to disagree :)

You are assuming their reported death numbers are accurate. You are also assuming the deaths caused by these policies won’t end up exceeding that number. Neither assumptions are backed by evidence.

> Neither assumptions are backed by evidence.

To the contrary, there is no evidence to suggest that China has had the spread necessary to kill 3 million people nor any evidence suggesting that they have covered up 3 million deaths.

You might naively think we have no way of checking, but this level of spread would be trivial to infer from antibody tests of people traveling to China. We have seen no indication of a deception anywhere near the scale you are suggesting.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#288

Post by danlugo92 »

the_omegist wrote: post #239
danlugo92 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People here in Venezuela used the same excuse, "Oh Chavez doesn't know about it", it being corruption etc, as if there weren't hundreds of reports/testimonies appearing in newspapers/etc every single day. What's next, Xi doesn't know about the organ farms? Hah.

What the parent comment said was that not every little detail is decided at the top. Chavez knew the country was corrupted but do you think he was behind every clerc or doctor that asked for a bribe? Dictators are not superior beings able to manage a country : they are just good at keeping hold and at hiding their mistakes.

> he was behind every clerc or doctor that asked for a bribe?

Yes he was, he purposely allowed corruption to flourish, communism 101.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#289

Post by fortuna86 »

Cookingboy wrote: post #283
fortuna86 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You spend a lot of time excusing the actions of an authoritarian government (while living in what I can only assume is a free western country). Criticism of the Chinese government isn't criticism of you personally.

Criticism should be levied if they deserve criticism, which can only be evaluated based on objective facts. "We should be critical of everything they do regardless because they are an authoritarian country" is unscientific and devoid of critical thinking. Meanwhile the free western country I live in had a million Covid death.

"Police states actually do some good while enslaving everyone else" is not the killer argument you think it is.

> Meanwhile the free western country I live in

Yep.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#290

Post by Cookingboy »

fortuna86 wrote: post #289
Cookingboy wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criticism should be levied if they deserve criticism, which can only be evaluated based on objective facts. "We should be critical of everything they do regardless because they are an authoritarian country" is unscientific and devoid of critical thinking. Meanwhile the free western country I live in had a million Covid death.

"Police states actually do some good while enslaving everyone else" is not the killer argument you think it is. > Meanwhile the free western country I live in Yep.

I never made an argument for police state. It seems like you are unable to objectively evaluate policies and science apart from the people behind it.

Even Nazi Germany has achieved a lot scientifically and they did a great job industrializing post WWI Germany. Acknowledging that fact doesn't mean you are arguing for the Nazis.

Also just because "China Bad", doesn't mean you get to make up random bad stuff and stick to them and call that facts. That's not how any of this works.

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