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Is my advice too mercenary?

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281–290 of 390 posts

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#281
post #201

The apology is unneeded. Not telling the entire truth during the very last phase of employment, the exit interview, is but a drip in a bucket of lies that is called employment. You lied to get in. By emphasizing your strengths and hiding your weaknesses. The employer did the same thing. You lie constantly about the work or its conditions being fine, as complaining about it is kind of a taboo. You lie to your peers an…

> You lied to get in. By emphasizing your strengths and hiding your weaknesses. The employer did the same thing.

One of the most powerful tools I use when interviewing senior candidates is being brutally honest about the company's weaknesses. Implicit in the act of hiring is the reality that you have a problem you need an employee to solve for you. Pretending those problems don't exist is bizarre.

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#282

Semi-related, I hate the term "late-stage capitalism". It was invented by a Nazi over 120 years ago and in the meantime has constantly been applied to whatever the new thing is. And the implication is awful - "things suck and it's not my responsibility to make things better besides waiting for the revolution". Please stop using this phrase unless you want to further alienate me from the position you are trying to mak…

> It was invented by a Nazi over 120 years ago That'd be a good trick, given that there were no Nazis until 1920.

> That'd be a good trick, given that there were no Nazis until 1920.

It was in a work published starting in 1902 (though the part concerning late-stage capitalism was published in 1927) by a German Marxist [0] (at the time he wrote coined the term) who became a nationalist in the Weimar era to the point that some of his writings later in the early 1930s apparently aligned to a certain extent with Nazi ideology, but who was putting out anti-Nazi writings (actively suppressed by the Nazis) by the late 1930s.

So, while “by a Nazi over 120 years ago” is not really accurate at all, it has some recognizable connection to facts.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Sombart

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#283
post #22

I’m not inclined to do an exit interview because I’ve likely already expressed my opinions. I do think the “the company doesn’t care about you” type advice does require some nuance. Different companies make different choices and just because someone moves from mega corporation to mega corp doesn’t mean you shouldn’t trust anyone… There’s space in between giving your entire self to a company and imagining everyone is…

My experiences while at Cisco about 4-5 years ago: 1st experience: Told my boss I am leaving. My boss’s boss calls me in a room , tells me he has some great projects for me and that we will work together on them. I agree. Turns out it was his last day! 2nd experience: Similar situation, told my boss I am going to a startup. Boss’s boss calls me and gives me a lecture about how it is a bad idea to go to a startup. I l…

Oh man, I worked with a bunch of ex Cisco folks years ago. Capable but there were a lot of folks just looking to hit metrics in the most cynical way and miss the point of the job. That and some surprising other issues.

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#284
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s right. Bosses love it so it’s not going to change until workers force it to.

Bosses absolutely do not love healthcare costs if that's what you're suggesting. But even legal mandates for larger firms aside, if you're trying to hire white collar workers while not having a decent healthcare plan, you're going to find it's a challenge.

Give me a break. Bosses can add and subtract, and so can employees. They both know healthcare is getting paid for from the paycheck regardless. And with company plans, bosses may pay less or may pay more. Probably less. Either way, bosses love that employees know quitting their job is going to require switching health insurance plans, which is a dicey process. Bosses like holding that power in the same way they like holding visas over H1B visa holders heads.

And the most obnoxious part of it all is that you knew this.

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#285
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that any different than some fiefdom ruled over by some noble? The whole point of democracy and elective government is that you can't rely on a system like that to be consistently good, whether it's the Duke's son squandering all the wealth and not listening to the people or a shift in management at the company. Just because sometimes there were benevolent companies that decided to contribute to their communit…

The two main differences: 1) Nobody pretends that business skills are especially hereditary. It is common for people to enter and exit the 'class' of business owner. 2) Success as as a business owner requires steady economic activity where people get what they want. Success as a noble ruling a fiefdom requires kneecapping anyone who challenges your god-given right to rule. One big observations: This is what US govern…

If I overlay that spending graph with quality of life during the same timespan, I might conclude government spending is a miracle. A greater success within 200 years can hardly be imagined.

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just think a lot of static gets injected into these discussions about wage/employers/comp on HN because a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those I've been reading HN for years and I would assume 90% of the comment section or more is people who only want to be employees. I hate to say it, but HN isn't a great place for genuine startu…

Don't you think that change in sentiment is connected to macroeconomic trends that go beyond the world of startups?

Yes but not in the way I think you're implying. Labor makes a rational decision to make as much money as they can, and as highly paid software jobs have become more common, more labor has entered software. Rather than the past when most people were in software to try something new or start something, most software labor these days is in it just for a living. The distinction between labor and capital itself in software was a bit arbitrary as many engineers would go off and become founding or otherwise early engineers in other firms.

Thus it makes rational sense for capital-disinterested labor to maximize what they get out of a job, much as corporations are criticized/observed to try and extract as much labor as possible out of employees. Hence it's become en vogue for labor in software to loudly criticize companies for any small slight to extract as much value as possible much just as corporations make decisions to maximize shareholder value. Just as companies can treat their workers badly, labor can malign capital unfairly.

It's the end result of corporations with disinterested labor. The two sides try to fight a war while extracting as much value as possible. Labor isn't interested in joining capital the way it once did when software was newer and sees them as permanent adversaries. It's also probably why we're seeing increased attempts at software unionization despite software being so well compensated; labor doesn't see itself as being similar to capital.

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#287
post #91

There was a time in America a generation or two ago when you could give your all to a company. Here in Michigan there were a number of small towns where a single employer would dominate. If the town needed something, like a baseball park the owner would simply write a check. If a loyal employee had a health crisis that insurance didn't cover the company owner would write a check. When there were tough economic times…

How is that any different than some fiefdom ruled over by some noble? The whole point of democracy and elective government is that you can't rely on a system like that to be consistently good, whether it's the Duke's son squandering all the wealth and not listening to the people or a shift in management at the company. Just because sometimes there were benevolent companies that decided to contribute to their communit…

Others have done a good job answering you, but I just want to add that there's a whole body of theory and scholarship that calls your mental model of this into serious doubt. It's called public choice theory and it essentially concludes that politicians, bureaucrats, and other officials are just as driven by selfish interests as anyone else, and that democratic systems typically do a very bad job at channeling that selfish energy toward the public good.

Forgive me for being sentimentalist a bit, but I think that nowadays we underestimate the weight that feelings of duty, loyalty, and trust had on rulers of times past. They were raised from the day they were born to be leaders, to care deeply about their family honor, to feel obliged to their subjects. Certainly, they were ultimately fallen men like the rest of us, and hereditary succession is not great at picking the best of each generation.

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#288
post #8
post #2

I can imagine a lot of new graduates having trouble with this: > I think many people, especially those newer to the working world, underestimate just how ruthless and sociopathic our late-stage Capitalist working conditions really are [...] I’d love to live in a world where less mercenary advice wasn’t dangerous, but that’s not our world.

I'm 46 and never in my whole career have working conditions been less ruthless nor less sociopathic than they are today. I'm constantly barraged with acceptance training, "human connection" training and calls where the expectation is to "share and connect" by telling the group something personal. I'm not with a bunch of kids either, these are all upper management very high 6 figure types. I don't want to be one of th…

Yeah. (long pause) Right. (long pause)

Less ruthless and less sociopathic, my ass. If that were true, Justine Sacco would not have lost her job for making a dumb joke on Twitter.

All this touchy feely bullshit matters right up until the point where the company is even in the slightest way negatively effective monetarily, then all your happy happy joy joy horseshit goes right out the window.

If anyone wants me to believe we live in a society that actually holds the values you claim are on display, then the next time someone makes a faux pas on Twitter or Facebook or in the office, the company stands strong against public sentiment and says, "So-and-So is one of our own, and we're not going to throw them to the wolves to appease a mob. Period." And then actually back it up.

Then I'll agree that things have actually changed. And if that ever does happen, then things will actually have changed.

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think that change in sentiment is connected to macroeconomic trends that go beyond the world of startups?

Yes but not in the way I think you're implying. Labor makes a rational decision to make as much money as they can, and as highly paid software jobs have become more common, more labor has entered software. Rather than the past when most people were in software to try something new or start something, most software labor these days is in it just for a living. The distinction between labor and capital itself in softwar…

This take is quite accurate, just a few points:

1. By broader macroeconomic trends, I was suggesting that HN commenters might be criticizing "charge more" simply because consumers in general, who may not be able to afford as much as they used to, would be adversely affected. Of course, tech companies who monetize by pursuing any number of alternate policies (adding ads, selling data, F2P loot boxes) would be just as roundly criticized. Lose-lose.

2. I'm not sure how feasible it is to expect the amount of labor crossing into capital to be on par with how it was in the dot-com bubble, or even just a decade before. Sure, a large amount of dumb money continues to slosh around in tech so long as interest rates and other economic conditions remain favorable for investing, but that doesn't mean the number of entrepreneurs will increase proportionally

3. Tech industry trends have shifted over time, and corporations don't simply make decisions at the expense of labor only for the sake of shareholders, but also for the founders themselves (who are also technically shareholders, sure). Witness this rather curious pre-pandemic thread from December 2019 where the HN commentariat almost overwhelmingly denounces joining startups, in favor of joining FAANG or starting one's own startup instead. (Though the latter would seem to contradict the 'less of software labor wants to join capital' idea.) As the second comment puts it pithily, "the math changed."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21865065

Re: Is my advice too mercenary?

#290
post #22

I’m not inclined to do an exit interview because I’ve likely already expressed my opinions. I do think the “the company doesn’t care about you” type advice does require some nuance. Different companies make different choices and just because someone moves from mega corporation to mega corp doesn’t mean you shouldn’t trust anyone… There’s space in between giving your entire self to a company and imagining everyone is…

Some people need to quit and run their own business and go through the pain of learning the skills to do so. If they don’t quit, they become impacted with resentment. People who are very creative and have the experience of having their innovations stolen / reassigned to others over and over again get extremely resentful.

I know because I am one of them. In my experience, the people who don’t understand are the ones who don’t create anything and are generally mediocre. Most employees do not design new ideas, programs or strategies. They act bewildered when their colleagues do create novel innovations and then seem to want to “own / run them.” Your reaction signals you are probably not in the creative sector, which is typical.

The people in the very upper 1% of the talent pool are most disadvantaged by corporate systems. If you create some new program that gets a lot of attention, management often can’t wait to divide the credit between you and others who didn’t do anything and then say it was “team work.” The one who produces all the inventions and ideas knows otherwise.

I have been burned so many times I am now deeply cynical and refuse to create anything new for anyone other than myself.

Example: I designed a program which got $20 million in funding (this is not a made up number). The project was then given to a lifelong veteran of the company. He got to “do the strategy.” That meant he took my exact slides and reformatted them. Then he was put to “manage” me because I was only allowed to be “an execution person” due to my seniority.

He got all the credit, I got all the work. That is one example of the benefits of being creative in these environments. Learned my lesson several times: Don’t create IP for corporations. Ever.

Best case scenario is they take it away from you Later rather than Sooner.

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