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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#281

Post by scotty79 »

bjoli wrote: post #242
kodah wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, it applies to dogs too. I have the privilege of giving my dog a way out of pain: I can put them down. That decision rests with me, and ultimately, one day, I will have to make it. I may choose every day to feed my dog the best diet I can afford, I'll give her massages, I'll snuggle her, care for her when she's sick, but ultimately, one day, I know I will have the choice to spare her the pain of dying a pain…

I have had to put 2 pets down due to illness. It was hard to do, and seeing them struggling not to fall asleep was heartbreaking. In just about every way possible that death is a world apart from what we do to most animals we eat. What we have deemed "humane" slaughter is really nothing else than an attempt to make the word humane devoid of all meaning. I stopped eating meat after seeing how a cow and some pigs from…

It's such a disgrace they use CO2. The one gas that the body can detect and percieve as danger and do anything to avoid and get rid of. They use it only because it's cheap.

They could have used argon, helium, maybe even nitrogen. Anything else that can lower oxygen concentration without the body noticing bacause it doesn't detect low oxygen levels, just high CO2 levels when you suffocate.

The jury is still out which gas is the best. I hope it'll be resolved before it's my time to go.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#282

Post by arvinsim »

david38 wrote: post #121
javajosh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Predators eat their whole life without wondering where it came from or what it implies about the world. It seems like the base state for every living individual, and is the most natural thing in the world. I think this is an important distinction to make, because if you don't make it you end up expressing contempt for those who don't think more widely rather than admiration for those that do.

Operative word being predator. People eat meat and most can’t stand the sight of animals being slaughtered in the method they currently are. Predators also put themselves at risk often, fail often, etc. Factory livestock is very much removed from this.

You have to keep in mind that having easy access to meat without hunting is a recent thing relative to history.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#283

Post by scotty79 »

pc86 wrote: post #174
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will look back with astonishment at the sheer madness of killing animals and eating them.

No, we definitely won't.

Why not? We'll move on to better things and eating corpses will be just gross.

It would be too gross even today for many people if there weren't any people with stronger stomachs around to prepare and partition corpses for them.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#284

Post by patrec »

atdrummond wrote: post #279
ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I am mainly a vegetarian, although I will eat ethically raised eggs and dairy products. I grew up in farm country and will also, on a very rare occasion, eat cattle raised on a proper farm/ranch - even though I absolutely love cows, who can be extremely affectionate, I believe they can be slaughtered relatively humanely. Cephalopods, on the other hand, are extremely difficult to farm in the wild or cull. They show im…

> going as far to tear off limbs or kill others/commit suicide.

Not to distract to much from your wider point, but I was under the impression that most species of octopi are solitary and it was not uncommon for them to kill and even eat each other on encounters even when not captured for slaughter. Is that not the case?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#285

Post by me_me_me »

infectoid wrote: post #266
ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I'm trying to cut meats out of my diet slowly. All seafood was easy as I was never that into it. Pig meat on the other hand... Bacon, Ham, Pork, etc. I knew that it had to go. So I started with that. Currently I'm an opportunitarian. Chicken is the meat of choice if I can't handle the vegetarian option, otherwise beef. But pig and all seafood is gone from my diet. My hope is that plant-based or cultured meat improves…

Tried to reduce the meat in my diet, to be honest even beforehand I was probably under the average. But I had hard time staying in pure veg diet. But I never managed to stay on only vegetarian diet. I am not monitoring myself but have few days of no meat a week, depending on my mood and whats in fridge.

I also only eat free range meat now, its much more ethical (in my mind at least). You still eat animals, but at least they had a safe environment to live in. I am not feeling guilty and I think its ok to just reduce amounts and experiment with veg dishes.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#286

Post by unfocussed_mike »

atdrummond wrote: post #277
unfocussed_mike wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fabulous. It's clear from just watching video clips of them that it's not just about being able to squeeze through gaps. They evidently experience puzzles with an enthusiasm that is unusual even in puzzle-solving birds, can seemingly understand quite complex things like how to non-destructively unscrew bottle tops, and from what I can gather they are kind of obsessed with jars and containers? As an untrained…

They love playing with containers and jars, absolutely. The male I have been describing especially enjoyed opening tightly sealed jars - although he displayed an aversion to all jars for a bit of time after one of the few times we put him with the octopus I'd call the "alpha female". He had handed her a large jar to play with, in what I would describe as an act of kindness. She proceeded to open it and take it back t…

Oof! A jarring misunderstanding about personal space.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#287

Post by scotty79 »

KerryJones wrote: post #7

I've had several people in my life tell me after more intense studies of octopi they refuse to eat them. While I've seen a couple of documentaries on the subject, I won't profess to know as much, but the essential argument has been that they're extremely intelligent, emotional animals. It's akin to eating a dog or cat (which might be acceptable in some parts of the world, but pretty shunned in the west). It's convinc…

I don't think pig is any less intelligent than a dog. It's just more meaty.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#288

Post by Viliam1234 »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #240
cjonas wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate? And if they don't eat me, I never exist in the first place? I'd opt to be eaten. Just seems like the aliens would be better off eating cows...

>a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate? So basically the plot of the Never Let Me Go. Except you can't really get the blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate thing if the organisms are intelligent.

Also similar to The Promised Neverland.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#289

Post by CallMeJim »

lisper wrote: post #100
silisili wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not joining in on the ethics of meat eating debate at all, but as someone who's lived around chickens a good chunk of life, calling them extremely intelligent would be...a stretch. Pigs though, definitely. Highly underrated animal.

That's surprising. I have no first hand experience, but I have been told by people who keep them as pets that chickens and cows are pretty much in the same league. Both can have distinct personalities.

Distinct personalities and intelligence are quite different things!

Talk to a grower and they'll tell you that plants have personalities (this one doesn't like the shade, this one sulks after being repotted, etc).

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#290

Post by [deleted] »

ornornor wrote: post #225
ComputerGuru wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. See, I feel like this just erodes from your argument. There’s not necessarily any trauma at all to the chickens or the cows involved in the production of eggs or milk. Trying to group that with the consumption of meat feels just very irrational.

Yes there is. Egg farms grind male chicks alive. They burn off the tip of the hens beak without anesthesia (which we know is high in nerves) so they don’t fight each other in captivity; which they don’t do nearly as much in nature because surprise surprise they’re not as stressed. Hens laying eggs every single day of their lives (because they’re taken away daily) live much much shorter lives and develop physiological…

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