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Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

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281–290 of 302 posts

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#281
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

My explanation of the 1947-1979 middle class bulge is the spoils of World War II for the United States. It gained brain power (smart immigrants), oversees market domination, and a premium on capital (other countries capital and people destroyed by war). Those spoils paid high wages for the US middle class because it needed those workers for its factories and companies. After a few decades the advantages of the spoils…

I wish I could upvote this more. It constantly astounds me that people construct elaborate theories about the decay of morality amongst the elite of America when faced with such a powerful supply/demand argument. It's pretty simple really: the industrialized nations spent tremendous resources over a span of about 7 reducing each other to rubble. At the end of it, they wanted to rebuild, and the only country with industrial capacity remaining was the United States. Furthermore, the process of rebuilding was extremely labor-intensive, involving construction and manufacture of durable commercial and consumer goods in an environment with low automation. To top it all off, when the other nations were finally rebuilt and started to be competitive again, the size of the available labor pool simultaneously started to expand as women entered the workforce. The middle-class American dream was the result of a global labor market anomaly that lasted for several decades, which was long enough to convince everyone that it was the new normal, and the long decline since the late 70s was the result of that anomaly ending.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The ruling class did not own anything except the shirts off their backs." If they didn't own anything then why do their ancestors still own great chunks of places like the UK - where many members of the upper classes can trace their ancestries, and the lands they own, back to the Norman conquest? Life as a royal in medieval times was pretty tough, but largely because they were still expected to fight to maintain the…

Fair enough, they "owned" it but it wasn't a liquid asset. That much was what I was trying to get across.

That's not true either.

Both land and other stores of value (eg gold & silver) were frequently traded between medieval landowners.

Even looking at Europe alone, the Kinghts Templers acted as bankers as early as 1000AD, which allowed the rich to transfer money over distance. By the 1300's the Medici's had created an institution that would be recognizable as a modern bank.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#283
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want land. I want to build my domain. I want to be master of my kingdom. I want to landscape it how I want. I want to pick which trees grow and which get cut. I want to slowly aquire/make the appliances I want. I want to build storage to house my wares. I want to have a machine shop. Honestly, for me, owning land gives me just another creative outlet. It's one more thing to 'Hack'. Do I line the driveway with sugar…

Well, OK, granted - I own my own home for exactly these reasons as well. But I bought my foreclosed home - bricks and mortar and 14 rooms and a carriage house - for $8000, in Richmond, Indiana, two years ago. I make my own freaking job online, which anybody here ought to be able to do. The only reason to complain about the high cost of home ownership is if you think you must, must, must live right next to everybody e…

No one is worried about well educated, literate, healthy, young software engineers. And no one should be.

I don't post here about poverty for my own sake. Anyone here can handle themself.

I'm posting for all the people who are in trouble right now and facing homelessness because software engineers made their job obsolete and they have no money to re-educate, no job, and no government help. It's not right to just say these people deserve what they get and should find their own way out or die or become homeless. Our society is wealthy enough that no one should ever be without the basics.

Anyone who can afford $8000 is not in trouble. A huge portion of the population today cannot. (Also, most people don't have the tremendous unprecedented luxury of being able to make money online.)

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#284
the top has had the biggest improvement compared to other groups during the great depression in the 1930-s and during the current recession

thats an indictment of Fed which has probably intentionally caused all of the crisis in the usa in the 20th century , to benefit Fed-s owners - few commercial banks ..

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#285
I assume "productivity" is something like real GDP/capita but it would be nice if the graph had units.

The productivity/compensation line conveniently starts in 1947 and makes the post-'70s era look unusual. In fact, the baby boom era was unusual -- with the possible exception of the first industrial revolution in Britain (1700s), it is without precedent in history. Two underlying factors are responsible: 1. the destruction of all other industrial nations in WWII (and consequent international demand for the dollar), and 2. cheap energy.

In 1947 the US had the world's only intact industrial infrastructure. This created tremendous overseas demand for our goods and our currency. As reconstruction abroad rapidly succeeded, the demand for the latter began to outstrip demand for the former, and we were all too happy to supply Eurodollars to meet it. By 1972, foreign claims on US gold reserves were totally unsustainable and Nixon unilaterally ended the Bretton Woods agreement.

Lightning struck twice on our shores with a sustained period of unbelievably cheap petroleum, which also ended in the 1970s. Recent work in thermoeconomics suggests that technology improvements are deflationary unless society can increase its gross energy consumption. Today's ICs are thousands of times faster than those of 1980, but they do not cost more. This is an efficiency improvement - a deflationary effect. (This deflation is largely missed by typical macroeconomic measures, which don't handle "hedonic" change well. The classic demo is to let people spend inflation-adjusted dollars in a catalog from 1980, and one from 2011. Nobody buys much from the older catalog.)

Building tract homes by the millions, on the other hand, requires increased gross energy consumption and is therefore monetized and reflected in measures like real GDP/capita. A similar issue exists around funding for "R&D". You can only fund the R. Since 1980, there's been an outright explosion in the number of scholarly publications disclosing promising breakthroughs, but breakthroughs can't penetrate society without energy. They sit on the page.

Today, we are a people harboring postwar expectations in a world of global competition and expensive energy. President Obama's recent speech was, like many he's given before, a populist appeal for a protectionist return to postwar conditions, when a high school diploma and a pulse could confer property ownership. Such measures cannot succeed.*

One of the most important roles of government in industrial society is to subsidize the production of energy. For the past 40 years, our government has sat idle (or even enacted counterproductive policies) while the real cost (EROI) of our energy sources has skyrocketed.

A common claim in connection with such graphs is that changes around 1980 are due to tax policy. I personally favor progressive taxation (and models suggest it can help with income inequality) but to suggest that tax policy is solely responsible for changes seen since 1970 is ignorant at best. And such claims are seldom accompanied by notice that all income quintiles (and all races) have marginally higher real income today than at any time in the past (effects of the great recession aside)... a moderately reassuring fact that would be left out only by someone attempting to tell a story. Psychologists know that income inequality has real, negative effects, so we should try to address it. But we mustn't do anything that would disturb the modest Pareto growth we have.

* Greenspun's comments on Obama's speech are also excellent: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2011/09/08/obamas-speech/

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#286
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

The bottom end of the scale isn't fixed. A person taking a vacation in 2011 adds more value to society by doing so than someone taking the same vacation in 1950.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#287
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please, point to me one example of this blue collar utopia. Much of the "oil states" are like that. > What about CPAs, lawyers, and their must be some sort of corporate hierarchy wherever these people are employed right? (1) In other words, you don't actually know anything about these biz,so you're hoping that what you picked up watching "The Office" is reasonably close. It isn't. (2) Not really. How many lawyers d…

Taking a few welding courses at the local community college was an eye opening experience for me. Welding is a means by which someone with essentially no education (but a steady hand) can earn a very decent living. Additionally, I've heard the age of the average weldor is something like 58. There's a coming glut in the market for skilled weldors, and it's going to be big. http://bit.ly/pmZVkz

Same for small-scale computerized manufacturing. The educational requirements are slightly higher (shockingly few people know even the simplest shred of trigonometry) but it's still a great way for some who would otherwise be flipping burgers to support a family.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#288
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing the income tax with an incremental property/savings tax probably would go a long way towards motivating people with wealth to use it or lose it. That idea is dead on arrival in today's heavily lobbied climate, I'm afraid.

It's not just DOA due to lobbying - a great many people just don't agree that rich people should be forced to use or lose their wealth. Why should the govt. have the power to impoverish someone with a lot of money just because they're not generating more with it? That seems to me to be a fairly substantial abuse of their rights.

Who said anything about impoverishing anyone? What does "impoverish" mean, exactly, to you?

In France, the wealth tax is 0% under €800k, increasing to a maximum of 1.8% (once the person gets to ~€17 million). How could this lead to impoverishment when even relatively conservative asset management averages returns of >5%? Even in this case the party's wealth is still increasing (especially since the proposal is to offset the wealth tax by eliminating all capital gains taxes, which are already extremely difficult to calculate).

And it's hardly an abuse: property taxes (a kind of wealth tax) are already levied, and while many complain, few claim it is government overreach. Government policy that favors a small and already powerful minority would seem to be a much greater abuse.

The bigger question is: why do most governments tax people for creating value, instead of taxing people for failing to?

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics and morality are intimately related. There are SOME free market ideologues who believe that unrestrained corporations will enrich the poor, however I believe they are in the minority. You may be one of them. The majority of libertarians believe that individual property rights are sacrosanct and that it is wrong to forcibly redistribute wealth to prevent poverty, hunger, suffering. This is the argument of the…

Economics is not like religion; there are actual correct and incorrect answers. As a newer field, we not always know how to find the correct answers yet. But that isn't an excuse to start treating it more like religion and less like science. "we can let them keep it and allow people to suffer." Using your feelings to guide your monetary policy decisions is no better than the creationists forcing ID to be taught in sc…

There are correct answers to questions like "will redistributing income from group X to group Y improve overall productivity?" but they're neither necessary nor sufficient criterion for policy formulation. (Keynesians, like their neoclassical economist critics tend to be favourably disposed towards assessing policy impact based on empirical evidence; Austrians on the fringe Right argue the economy is too complex to act as a testing ground)

Questions like "is better aggregate economic growth a justification for disproportionate tax increases for these people?" or "if the bottom percentile are hungry, should feeding them take precedence over growth objectives?" are inherently moral

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#290
post #217
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this comment only acknowledges the existence of white collar jobs. You used to be able to pay for a house, a car, and the kids' college education with a factory job. While the wife stayed at home. Now, that scenario is eye-popping unbelievable. You're probably at wal-mart or starbucks if you don't have some sort of specialist skill or a connection into the white collar world. I'm not endorsing a particular so…

> You used to be able to... And you still can, if you live like it's 1960. Cancel cable, Internet, and everyone's cell phones. Never fly. Don't buy organic food. No HDTV, iPod, iPad, or laptop. Have a modest wedding. Don't send your kids to college. Live in a one-story house with one bathroom and a small garage for your one car. If people today have to work harder and smarter than their 1960s counterparts, it's becau…

Oh, and forget about air conditioning.
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