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The state of external retina displays

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Re: The state of external retina displays

#281

Post by johnwalkr »

I recently gave away one of two of my 7 year old 4K 27" monitors, thinking I could upgrade to something larger and higher resolution instead of using 2 monitors. I assumed I could get something around 35" and >4K but it doesn't exist. Aside from the Apple XDR display (32" 6K), there are 27" 4K monitors, a few 32" 4K monitors, or much larger (too large in my opinion) 4K or 8K TVs. Then there's a refresh rate arms race of smaller 1080p or 1440p monitors for gaming. And almost all of the options above aside from the XDR and large TVs look terrible next to a macbook. If you read monitor forums there's posts going back 2 years now saying "with HDMI 2.1 coming out soon, there will be more options." But nothing really appeared.

In the end I pulled the trigger on a 1440p 49" ultrawide[1] because it appeared on sale one day for $600 with only $50 shipping from US to Japan. I really like the form factor for working with references off to the side, but it's dim, washed-out, and blurry compared to the macbook I use it with. I'll be replacing it as soon as something better is available.

And why do all monitors have absolutely terrible UIs? I virtually never use any feature aside from switching inputs, and that usually takes 10 button presses. Usually the buttons are all in a row but represent up/down/left/right. Adding insult to injury, the monitor I'm now using has single button access to change the power LED color or add a crosshair to the screen. And if it loses signal for a split second, such as to change resolution, it either changes to another input or powers down. Either of these takes 10 seconds to fix. The manual shows a remote control with the buttons I want, but apparently it is no longer included, or available.

[1]https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=43305

Re: The state of external retina displays

#282

Post by mastercheif »

metmac wrote: post #141

My dream display would be close to retina PPI + 16:10 ratio. Still running 2x 30” Apple Cinema Displays because I prefer the 1600px height. They are awful displays by modern standards. But what I’d give to have a panel that is 5120 x 3200.

I’m in the same boat, I’m holding on to my 30” ACD until I get get a pixel doubled version of it for under $2k.

Re: The state of external retina displays

#283

Post by inkyoto »

peanut-walrus wrote: post #129
urthor wrote: post #73

> Ridiculous Option: Apple Pro Display XDR I'll admit, a monitor that costs more than my first car is beyond affordable for 99% of the population. But saying that, many of the people reading this are pulling truly exotic salaries right now. After devoting untold hours to reaching the top of their profession. Let's say you're a professional earning $300k plus in software. You're often working 100% remote, using your m…

I call bullshit on the $4000 scissors. The very very highest end goes to $1000 and most hairdressers use scissors around the $100 mark, which are still extremely good professional tools. Furthermore, if you have a very expensive pair of scissors, you are not going to be sharpening them twice a day... More like twice a year (and you take them to a professional, you don't do it yourself) .

I can't comment on the real world value of a $4k pair of professional scissors, but the price is not infathomable if it is hand made, made to order Japanese scissors made out of the Japanese Damascus steel. They are likely to take a month or a few to get made and will outlast the humanity. Yes, they probably require to be sharpened ahem serviced by the same master who has made them.

NHK World ran a program a few years back dedicated to the art of the Japanese scissors making, and it was an enlightening experience to watch. The meticulous attention to every single aspect of the scissors, ranging from the carbon content of the steel to ways of sharpening them by hand (no machinery used) has nearly implored my mind. Or, perhaps, I was just that impressed.

Re: The state of external retina displays

#285

Post by BoorishBears »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #238
BoorishBears wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I buy a $5k monitor and donate more than that, are you satisfied then? Why turn this into a morality play?

> What if I buy a $5k monitor and donate more than that, are you satisfied then? I don't believe you would actually do this or you wouldn't make that comment, but either way don't do it to satisfy me. > Why turn this into a morality play? As I said, a lot of people are struggling and hungry. The point of the comment is to inject a little reality in to the idea that a $4,000 monitor is "worth it" because someone is at…

You know, I wasn't upset...

at least not when you wrote this:

> Don't do it because I am satisfied or not.

but for some reason you felt the need to edit it to:

> I don't believe you would actually do this or you wouldn't make that comment, but either way don't do it to satisfy me.

You should probably rollback the edit.

I'm from Ghana, I probably donate what you've donated in a decade every month to people who need it more than any American ever will.

And not just money, time. I don't go back home just to see my family after all, I've spent months of my time working with my father on his USAID project in the country. Is taking a 6 month unpaid sabbatical and giving up 200k in pay enough for our resident patron saint of the poor?

I grow reallll tired of people like this. People in the "1st world" who based on their virtue signaling you'd assume live like monks but in reality live in relatively cozy excess completely unaware of half the reality the actual downtrodden face.

-

Semi-off topic but based on this comment I feel like you're exactly who needs to hear this. The degree to which virtue signaling has become an integral part of some people's sense of identity in this country is infuriating: It's not cold where I'm from, people still need help.

Getting giddy off slogans and token shows of kindness in one of the most privileged countries on earth...

Where I'm from "needing help" isn't a seasonal issue, and it's not even close to being as bad as it gets globally.

-

> But the marginal happiness of an HN user buying a $4,000 monitor instead of a $2,000 is very low, and there are other ways to spend extra cash.

What a joke. Did it ever occur to you spending fractions of a percent more compared to what you get paid to sit in front of the damn thing is a marginal expense?

> Why get upset anyway? I think I made a fine suggestion. Someone could do what I suggested. Or not. You don't have to do it if you don't want to.

Because you have the audacity to talk so condescendingly based on someone's monitor choice. I couldn't resist replying in kind.

Re: The state of external retina displays

#286

Post by pseale »

A reasonable high-enough DPI option I've been watching for a while is a 55" 8K TV. We're close to the 8K utopia!

- HDMI 2.1 can push 8K @ 60Hz over a single cable (though I am told the colors are not full range? https://twitter.com/MaratTanalin/status/1426726300585185284 - "Afaik, 8K@60Hz via HDMI 2.1 is only possible with either DSC compression or chroma subsampling — both are lossy.")

- A 3090 can push the pixels

- 8K TV prices have come down to ~$1500-$2000 - In theory, some combination of Game Mode and/or manually turning off all forms of picture post-processing can get you into good-to-good-enough input lag

If you want to wait for monitor manufacturers to manufacture 8K monitors, well, while it's inevitable, it'll be a while. But for the bold and stout of heart, for those willing to take risks, a new adventure awaits you. 8K

Re: The state of external retina displays

#287

Post by vanilla_nut »

izacus wrote: post #11

So I have a 28" 4K display (USB-C, ethernet, the whole shebang) and I don't notice a massive difference between that one and the MacBook one. Those displays are widely available and pretty cheap too. Is there something wrong with me that I don't see a massive improvement between that PPI and the MBP one? To the point where I'd lose my mind about it and demand 5K there?

Same here. If I get up really close, I can tell the difference, but not the way I normally sit in my seat. It probably helps that I have a fairly deep desk and monitor arms, for maximum eye-monitor distance.

Retina is 326 PPI+ on iPhones. It’s 220 PPI+ on MacBooks. I have to say that my 170 PPI or so is plenty on my 4k 28” desktop monitors. Though I would be very very happy to upgrade to 120hz (without turning my laptop into a jet engine) and maybe 5k as well for perfect 2:1 1440p scaling.

Re: The state of external retina displays

#288

Post by ece »

nickjj wrote: post #145
floatboth wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using a 28" 4K (with Wayland, which does scaling exactly like macOS) — used to use 1.5x with downscaling but switched to 2x "huge UI" for perfect crispness and honestly? It's not bad. It's actually good. Don't fear the big buttons :)

> switched to 2x "huge UI" for perfect crispness and honestly? It's not bad. It's actually good. Don't fear the big buttons :) There's always a balance and trade-off here. 2x scaling with 4k really means you end up with the same screen real estate as 1080p. In my opinion I would very much prefer 24" or 25" at 1440p with native scaling which is ~120 PPI. I personally run both a 25" 1440p display and another 24" 1440p…

> 1.5x also gives you the same real estate as 1440p but with higher PPI but I don't know how crisp that will be given the scaling ratio.

1.5x is nice on a 27 inch 4k with 14+ fonts. HiDPI monitors do seem to have bloom, so slightly bigger fonts with higher DPI are good to have.

Re: The state of external retina displays

#289

Post by Nexxxeh »

minimaul wrote: post #225
xapata wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got a bizarre situation in which an OS upgrade bricked my Mac. I can't remember the details now, but it was something about an interface change in which I had managed to activate 2FA, but the login interface didn't have an input box for it. The device was old enough that I just heaved a sigh and gave it to Apple for recycling.

There's actually a solution for that: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204915 > What if I use two-factor authentication on a device running older software? > If you use two-factor authentication with devices running older OS versions – such as an Apple TV (2nd or 3rd generation) – you may be asked to add your six-digit verification code to the end of your password when signing in. Get your verification code from a t…

This weirdly works in some other places. Iirc one of the Amazon's seller login pages accepts the 2FA code appended to the password to avoid having to go through another page.

Re: The state of external retina displays

#290

Post by jiggawatts »

Where PC displays ought to be in 2021:

At the high-end: 6K or 8K 120Hz 1000 nit, 12-bit HDR in various sizes from 27" up to 40" where this kind of resolution makes sense.

At the "enthusiast" or "gamer" tier: 4K 240Hz with 10-bit HDR, either 1000 nit LCD or 600 nit OLED. (From 2022, RGB OLED with 1000 nit brightness)

In both cases wide-gamut colour (Display P3 or wider) should be available and "just work". Ideally much wider, near Rec.2020. I still use a 8 year old(!) monitor with 100% AdobeRGB coverage. For some bizarre reason, this is a "high bar" that 99% of currently sold PC monitors don't reach, despite quantum dot filters being a thing since 2013(!!).

This isn't wishful thinking, this is all existing, off-the-shelf technology widely available elsewhere in the general consumer market -- just not for PCs.

So for example, my iPhone has a wide-gamut, 1000 nit HDR OLED screen with 120 Hz.

LG sells an 8K OLED with 120 Hz, and 240 Hz 4K televisions are commonplace. Most TVs have 1000+ nit HDR, and OLEDs will reach about 1000 nits in 2022.

Most of the above is simply unavailable in the PC display world, or is only available "piecemeal". I just got a laptop with an OLED 4K HDR display, but it is limited 60Hz. This isn't an input cable limitation, it's a built-in display with a 5cm long cable!

There are exactly zero 120 Hz PC OLED monitors available on the market under 40" (i.e.: not a re-purposed television). None.

Back to my laptop: HDR "works" in the checkbox tick sense. The panel is physically very good, but even on Windows 11 with the absolute latest drivers it's hit & miss:

- Windows is not colour managed by default. Still. In nearly-2022 era. Apps randomly look correct or have visibly "stretched" gamuts. Most things are limited to sRGB, and can't use the display native gamut, despite wide-gamut support for the UI being available as far back as Vista.

- HDR content is randomly correct by accident (YouTube), overbright and clipped horribly (also YouTube for some reason), or way too dark (NetFlix).

- Dolby Vision doesn't work at all. The "Dolby Access" app is abandonware that does nothing. (Again, both my TV and my phone can play DV content!)

- Games don't work in HDR at all on the internal OLED display, but do work with an external TV plugged in. So the GPU is capable of it, it just refuses to work!

- The panel is 10-bit capable, but only if HDR is turned on.

- With HDR on the screen stays black when the laptop resumes from sleep, making this a no-go for general use. This is a known issue that has persisted through at least three semi-annual releases of Windows, with a WONTFIX response from Microsoft!

This is where were are on the eve of 2022: A super-high-end Windows computer screws up the colours for apps, can't reliably play HDR, refuses to for games, and dies if HDR is used before it goes to sleep. It doesn't matter anyway because HDR displays are rarer than hen's teeth and won't be available until 2023 at the earliest, some time after TV manufacturers will stop making LCDs entirely and switch 100% of their production over to OLEDs.

Don't worry, the old LCD lines will be used to make faded, sub-sRGB displays for us poors.

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