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I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

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Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#281

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

dc7yduejjrn wrote: post #173
42jd wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep I posted this hoping to raise awareness, but the reaction was not what I expected. In the US even a meritless legal threat will require hiring a lawyer to ensure you are in the clear which requires significant amount of money, in addition to the stress. Researchers should never be putting anyone in that position.

This is just FUD. I've yet to meet a lawyer who won't do a cursory evaluation of your case for free. It's in their interest to know if you're bringing them an easy win.

> I've yet to meet a lawyer who won't do a cursory evaluation of your case for free.

You don't get out much, do you?

I've known tons of lawyers that won't look at their watch and tell you the time, unless they get a tenner from it. To be fair, they are used to folks trying to extract highly valuable services from them, for free, so it's sort of a defense mechanism.

I have (and have had) many friends that are lawyers. A few will help me out with quick consults for free. I even have one chap that has gone beyond that, and I'm grateful. I'm quite aware of the value of their services, and always offer (and am willing) to pay; even if they decline to invoice me.

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#282

Post by shadowgovt »

jahewson wrote: post #116
shadowgovt wrote: post #82

What are the legal requirements for a blog run out of American servers by an American to be GDPR compliant these days? I'm sort of wondering whether you can get away with responding to such a request these days with "I am not in a jurisdiction that is obligated to comply with that law, and if you choose to charge me with violating it I am not under obligation to defend myself in court nor render myself for judgment?"

As long as you’re not collecting the personal data of Europeans, there’s basically nothing you need to worry about. Your location and jurisdiction are mostly irrelevant - you’re obliged to comply with that law when you offer a your website in Europe. Of course the only possibility of enforcement is also in Europe, so there’s not much going to happen. I suppose if you ran a rogue business then in theory credit card fu…

That's what I'm thinking. If you're not European, it basically boils down to the realpolitik of whether your home country would render you up to European judgement or other private businesses you deal with would choose not to deal with you because you don't bother to say whether or not you comply with the GDPR.

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#283

Post by 6chars »

xena wrote: post #256

I am the author of this article if anyone has any questions.

No question, but I just want to sympathize with your distress over receiving the original email. It's impossible to say for sure because I didn't receive one, but I think I would have reacted the same way. I am also very frustrated on your behalf with the way people in these comments are talking about you and others who read this email as a legal threat.

It's telling about many HN users' capacity for empathy that they think their reaction, real or hypothetical, has anything to do with whether this was a bad thing. Regardless of how any of us would react, it's clear from the many people who lawyered up or experienced anxiety because of the emails that this study had victims. Not seeing them as victims because you would have disregarded the email reveals what I'd consider a solipsistic mindset that causes them to regard others' experiences as less valid than their own.

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#284

Post by eropple »

xena wrote: post #272
42jd wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just going to tag along to my comment above. I can't help but notice the difference in tone of the responses to this article vs. the one yesterday ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29599553 ) which I did not see. It seems those who participated in the thread yesterday had a quite different opinion.

As the author, I wonder how much me being not quiet but not an asshole about being nonbinary and having furry stickers in the article makes people start hitting the vitriol button.

You obviously don't need anyone to tell you this, but for passersby for whom this has not been on their radar before: this is almost certainly true. HN commenters will on occasion be superior jerks towards anybody, but this is some loud posters' instantaneously adopted position when they see a name that doesn't code as male--for another example, see many `rachelbythebay.com` posts, where you have randos getting sniffy and assuming she's incompetent or junior for some Real Interesting Reasons.

By my estimation it is real, the proprietorship (who I like and appreciate personally, and I think are operating on good faith) of this community has often made noises about how it should be better. It's not, and it should be.

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#285

Post by bborud »

seanhunter wrote: post #136
dcow wrote: post #17

Can someone help me understand the ethical problem here? If I as an ordinary citizen contacted the webmaster with a similar worded email, the result would have been the same. The fact is that this “experiment” did not create any more or additional stress than is created for normal citizens/businesses simply engaging in normal legal activities. If submitting such a request has the potential to cause such undue stress,…

Well for starters they are lying and misreprenting themselves and the basis for their query. They say they are a data subject from Nice and represent that they are going to make a request under the CCPA. In actual practise they are a researcher from Princeton. If you don't think that's an ethical problem then I don't see it's worth discussing further. When you say "If I as an ordinary citizen..." you essentially make…

Someone on the Internet is lying and misrepresenting themselves? Nooo!

(The rest isn't a response to seanhunter's comment, but a comment on the discussion in general)

If we take a step back from the discussion; I'd have to say that this is in a gray area that kind of ends up being mostly in the "ok" region - or possibly in the "probably not worth giving a shit about" region. There is a simple litmus test you can make: how would people have reacted if this had been limited to large corporations you do not like? The response would have been very different.

Let us at least be honest enough to admit that to ourselves.

That this is part of academic research doesn't really change anything.

It also needs to be said that people tend to be too uptight about perceived small infringements on what they see as their inalienable rights. If we are going to label subjects of what is at best described as akin to consumer research as victims we are watering out the term to the point where every person who has accessed the web is essentially a victim.

Hence the victim blaming someone tried to call out in a comment, is needless douchebaggery and drama. There are real victims of real transgressions and this is belittling.

People need to take themselves a bit less seriously. You are part of human subject research studies every time you use the web. And yet you come back for more every day.

Half of you probably contribute code and time to an industry that turns human behavior into numbers that the is translated into cash. And proudly so. Hypocrisy just makes us all look like douchebags.

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#286

Post by Ekaros »

I don't really see any issues with this. If you are subject to any of these rules you and your business should be ready. If not they shouldn't be a concern. Absolutely nothing unethical going on here. Apart from crap business not wanting to follow the legistlation.

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#287

Post by jefftk »

dcow wrote: post #17

Can someone help me understand the ethical problem here? If I as an ordinary citizen contacted the webmaster with a similar worded email, the result would have been the same. The fact is that this “experiment” did not create any more or additional stress than is created for normal citizens/businesses simply engaging in normal legal activities. If submitting such a request has the potential to cause such undue stress,…

From my perspective, the problem isn't that they ran an experiment, the problem is that they lied to site owners, making them think they needed to deal with a tricky legal request. In many cases, the sites reached out to lawyers in answering those requests, which is pretty expensive.

The experiment aspect is only a problem in as much as it being an experiment caused the researchers to do something they wouldn't normally have done, or been okay doing.

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#288

Post by Ekaros »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #56
avalys wrote: post #36

I don't see anything unethical about sending an email asking website operators how they comply with their obligations under various privacy laws. If you are not subject to those laws, you can reply as such. And if you are subject to those laws - it is a valid question! If you find the prospect of receiving this email so horrifying, perhaps your real problem is with the laws themselves?

So you see nothing wrong with the deception of pretending to present an honest inquiry when in fact you are not? If this came from a real person and was a real question then of course it would be ethical, but it wasnt

No not really. Might have been better to hire someone in these legislations to send the email, but I don't think that would really have changed the ethics. These unethical businesses have not followed the laws and now are crying...

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#289

Post by Ekaros »

renewiltord wrote: post #25

Lmao I periodically troll my friends by sending them GDPR and CCPA notices. If you did this to my blog, I’d let you take me to small claims or whatever. The probability of you making it all the way to prosecution and the total harm is so low that I’m not going to CCPA or GDPR enforce on my blog. Bite me.

With GDPR you can't even take it to court. That is not your option. And the agencies have lot bigger things to do. So unless you did some extremely blatant I would evaluate risks to be non-existent.

Re: I was part of a human subject research study without my consent

#290

Post by mannykannot »

danaris wrote: post #262
netizen-936824 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would have been possible to make the requests without a threat of suit. The thinly veiled threat of suit came from a portion of the email that quoted a specific section and used legal verbiage to get people to respond within a certain time frame (as required by the law) This was taken as a legal threat. The request would have been just as valid without the threat

Though due to the nature of the requests, they were not actually subject to that specific section of the law, and thus the demand of a response within 45 days had no genuine legal foundation.

Is that intended to either justify or excuse the inclusion of that language? If so, I strongly disagree.
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