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Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

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281–290 of 367 posts

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon penalizes their workers for bathroom breaks and replaced their HR team with a chatbot. This is allowed by federal labor laws, and Amazon’s primary source of retail revenue is externalizing human costs. Our tech and business communities believe regulations are harmful, and American politicians are inept. So I don’t see how we can prevent their abuse unless something changes; yet, no one wants to be the one that…

> unless something changes People will be replaced by robots, this is what will change. It is already happening. McDonalds is canonical example of that.

Given how often I have to reboot my car stereo — Subaru stereos are all powered by a decades-old Windows CE platform — I’m not thinking that McDonalds will successfully overcome the traumas of unattended automation to the degree that their reputation requires. Apparently something like a tenth or a quarter (I forget) of their automatic soft serve machines are down nationwide at any given second of the day. If a tenth of McDonalds were closed worldwide at any given open-hours time due to removing human workers and replacing them with current-grade automation, their reputation would be forever destroyed.

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My proposed solution is to continue to reserve the word warning for its old use, to keep people safe by preventing the cry-wolf effect and to introduce an intermediate term to appease the people who want to ring the alarm more often and communicate with locals who want more information. I agree that the older, simpler watch and warning system was better, if that's what you're saying.

We agree that the existing watch/warning system as it stands is highly effective. Sure, there are more warnings than there used to be, but that is largely based on the fact that the radar data available to make warning decisions is much more reliable than it used to be. There are potentially more warnings issued that don’t verify, but they’re also based on data that is much likelier to verify. (As opposed to relying…

Yes, the bottom line is we have to hope for more sophisticated interaction with weather alerts over time. Events like this weekend's tornado could have that silver lining as the timeline becomes more widely known as it currently appears to have involved tornado(s) that moved too quickly once on the ground for lives to be saved. I'm not optimistic given the careless behavior I've observed living in tornado-prevalent areas--but this was a bad one.

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless something changes People will be replaced by robots, this is what will change. It is already happening. McDonalds is canonical example of that.

That is there best argument to fight now for good conditions, the more robots in the future the less leverage to negotiate. On a second note, if robots replace humans. Who is going to buy products? Because humans without jobs do not have money. Why have warehouses if nobody can but anything? That hypothetical future were robots replace workers is way more complicated that many people thinks.

Science fiction has been making about universal basic income, zero cost basic living goods and housing, and comprehensive social support services. They also suffer a lot of wealth stratification and “we don’t talk about how we load cash into the money pump” blind spots. It’s the right question to ask; isn’t all revenue eventually deprecated by robotics?

Thankfully, the reality is that we can’t create safe and resilient automatons, so we don’t have to worry about humans being replaced any time soon, if not for centuries. For example, we have landed zero fully autonomous rovers on Mars, and we have no autonomous rover repair bot, even if we did, so it would break down because we’re terrible at producing technology that works for a decade or more between failures.

The wealthy humans who don’t like paying humans are thrilled to let us think that the wealth gaps are due to automation and globalization, because otherwise there’d be pitchfork mobs at their doors. But it’s not robots we need to be afraid of. It’s greed we need to be afraid of. That’s what drives Amazon to externalize humanity as a cost to be paid by anyone else but them. That’s what drives Uber to destroy taxis and then try to harvest automaton driver training data. There are no robotic taxis that can survive human beings who realize that the taxis are so risk-averse that they can be taken advantage of, cut off in traffic, trapped and damaged or harvested for parts, etc.

We seriously are like fifty or a hundred years away from automation being able to do a single job for a year without human maintenance. Everyone’s afraid of robots replacing us (beep beep boop boop) but in reality we can’t even advance past VCRs that flash 12:00, and it’s been one week since Tesla locked their entire worldwide customer base out of their cars with a 500 Server Error. Automatons are not a relevant big bad.

Here’s a simple litmus test for whether you should worry about automation at a macroeconomic level: How long has it been since your production web server responded with a single unhandled exception to a user? Not 404s, not “your cookie is defective, bounty hunter”, but like 429 Too Many or 500 Proxy time-out or whatever. Everyone will say “well, it’s really difficult to have such effective HA that you trap outbound errors and try to resolve them, and POST requests aren’t repeatable, and you can’t control the Internet”. If we can’t deliver static HTML without blips and outages, then we certainly don’t need to be afraid of a human-facing, human-serving automaton. It’s a great litmus test. I call it “zero nines”, because there’s no 9s in 100% uptime.

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#284
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is also my response to fire alarms so sensitive that they'll start to chirp when I can't even recognize the smell of a neighbor 50+ ft away smoking outside. It'd be really nice if no one smoked and if these alarms reserved the shrill noises for real emergencies and user initiated tests only.

FYI, fire alarms are designed to become more sensitive as they age/die so if yours is picking up false positives, it’s a good indicator you need to replace it. That, or it really is poor ventilation.

I hadn't really thought about it, but that makes a ton of sense. Smoke detectors typically use an alpha-emitter, smoke absorbs alpha particles, so a failure to detect is what triggers the alarm. The cost for a false-negative is much higher than a false-positive, so that's what the detector should default to.

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#285
post #210
post #57

Mods - this truncated headline makes no sense, which is awful with such a serious story. It should be rephrased to: "6 Amazon workers killed after tornadoes destroy warehouse near St. Louis".

When is the character limit on HN going to be increased so we can create longer subjects/headlines?

We're not going to do that, for a bunch of reasons. One is that it's a creative constraint which (after 15 years I think we can say) is always possible to work within.

Another is that if we made it longer, people would soon experience the new length as a constraint in its own right.

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#286
post #57

Mods - this truncated headline makes no sense, which is awful with such a serious story. It should be rephrased to: "6 Amazon workers killed after tornadoes destroy warehouse near St. Louis".

Thanks - fixed now.

Submitted title was "Six Amazon workers killed after tornadoes reduce warehouse near St. Louis". I don't think that was awful, but ok.

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#287

I slept through three tornado sirens last night. It was pretty wild. The first one, I thought it was a test. (We have tests every month on the 1st.) But it wasn't until a few minutes in that I realized it was for real. Then apparently I just... went to sleep? That wasn't the smartest decision I've ever made. It went off a couple more times. One strange thing was the realization that I had no idea where to turn for in…

This is all so dumb that it feels like it must be a troll. You don’t need a TV to watch your local TV news. They have this newfangled thing called a website and they are also on twitter. Or try your local newspaper’s website, which will obviously cover live weather events. Sigh.

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#288
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people live here and are telling you that a tornado watch can sometimes be a weekly occurrence in the summer. Tornado warnings are far more rare, but even then, it generally takes tornado sirens/phone alerts to adjust people's behavior.

OK I get the message. Do we know when these alerts start appearing in the Edwardsville area?

As far as yesterday was concerned, Edwardsville (and neighboring areas) knew they were in the line of fire by 8PM local time. The tornado hit the facility at ~8:40.

Source: my phone blew up with 3+ emergency alerts starting at around 8. (here's a NWS tweet from 7:45 -- you can see what we were dealing with: https://twitter.com/NWSStLouis/status/1469483383994691586)

Things can get out of control quicker (15-20 minutes warning is usually as close as it gets), but I think it's definitely reasonable to suspect negligence in this instance. There are two possibilities, imo:

1. They had enough time to get people to shelter, and chose not to 2. The facility wasn't up to par

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#289
post #161

I don’t understand a few things, as they aren’t covered in the article, that I saw. Were there no warnings for the severe weather storm that would have prevented people coming in to work or allowed them to leave work early? When I was working in the office, we were usually forced (literally security swept the building) to leave when severe winter weather was coming in a few times. Why doesn’t Amazon, in the middle of…

>Were there no warnings for the severe weather storm that would have prevented people coming in to work or allowed them to leave work early? There were warnings. Warnings that skipping work would get one fired[1]. And since the warehouse was not closed that day, the warning was: clock in on time, or else, weather be damned. >When I was working in the office... Well there's a difference between how office employees ar…

Honestly you sound like one of those armchair analysts from California who have no idea what weather even is.

The warnings for tornado touchdowns are minutes at best. Businesses don't shut down whenever there is a bad storm with the possibility of tornado. It happens way too frequently for that to be practical.

Re: Six dead after tornadoes destroy Amazon warehouse near St Louis

#290
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who grew up in the midwest (specifically in Joplin, where we know a thing or two about tornados! [1]), I'll say those are largely ignored both in and out of work. I've never left work during a tornado. I've rarely even stopped working during a tornado -- the only time I even went to a basement was when we literally saw a tornado out the window from our desks. As soon as it passed, it was back to work. If y…

> I'll say those are largely ignored both in and out of work. I've never left work during a tornado. I've rarely even stopped working during a tornado ... Which is exactly how dozens of people died in a candle factory and six more at an Amazon warehouse, all for the sake of holiday gifts. Just because you don't currently take something seriously, doesn't mean you shouldn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_f…

First of all those workers absolutely stopped working, they went to the shelter section of the building but guess what, mother nature sometimes can get worse than what your preparation is ready for.

Secondly I don't know what you are suggesting here. Do you have any idea how frequent weather like this are in the midwest?

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