Web3? I have my DAOts • Hacker News Board

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#281

Post by siwatanejo » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #218

narrator wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I think driving Bitcoin is that all the other assets that can absorb billions of dollars in liquidity are throughly manipulated. A trillion dollars goes into Sovereign Debt. The government can issue endless sovereign debt to dilute that. A trillion dollars goes into the stock market. The companies on the stock market can issue tons and tons of new shares to dilute that. A trillion dollars goes into paper go…

But publicly traded companies don't dilute their shareholders away. Those shares either have to be sold (meaning the company takes in proportional amounts of cash, driving the value up) or issued as compensation (which you can't just unilaterally in a publicly-traded company). Your gold example is also very contrived because the futures market doesn't literally dilute away physical gold. As for Bitcoin: You're missin…

> But publicly traded companies don't dilute their shareholders away.

Sure; however governments do dilute their share... err citizens away ;)

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#282

Post by __float » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

siwatanejo wrote: post #278

Animats wrote: post #99

OK. The reason all this happening is that Bitcoin really did go to the moon. That's what powers all this speculation. If the price of Bitcoin had been stable for a decade, and it worked reliably, it would be a useful medium of exchange, but nobody would care. This is all about MAKE MONEY FAST. Bitcoin found some early use cases. Drugs first. Then getting money out of China. Money laundering. Tax evasion. Scams. Bitco…

> For every winner, there has to be a loser. Completely agree with this sentence. Now, have you happened to frame this sentence in your head when talking about fiat money? Just wondering.

Instead of "just wondering" with a not-so-subtle disagreement, it would be more constructive to expand on how you think this applies to fiat money.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#283

Post by EugeneG » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

dperfect wrote: post #268

darkFunction wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (1) has no I/O functions Input: User identity, money. Output: Digital services, site subscriptions, digital assets, in-game items, NFT's representing real world assets held by trusted companies (wine, event tickets, tokenized securities). None of this requires oracles and exists today. Your mistake is thinking that just because the base layer is decentralised that we're somehow not allowed to connect to companies w…

> Output: Digital services, site subscriptions, digital assets, in-game items, NFT's representing real world assets held by trusted companies (wine, event tickets, tokenized securities). > None of this requires oracles and exists today. While I only mentioned oracles specifically, I should have clarified: I'm referring both to oracles (making queries to external data sources and providing the results to the blockchai…

Yep. Blockchain says I own this case of wine... but the other guy wont give me my wine! Who do I call? The physical, centralized police and the centralized legal system that back it. Without that legal system recognizing and honoring it, it's worthless. And if it all depends on my centralized legal system, then who cares about the decentralized blockchain. Might as well put it in a table in a database instance running on AWS, or in a written contract.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#284

Post by ipaddr » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:33 AM UTC

kryptonomist wrote: post #272

apatters wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say everyone on the planet is Ethereum enabled tomorrow. What is the business case for the winery to use it in your example? I get that Ethereum or any other crypto can be another payment option for their customers. Beyond that what use does a winery have for a programmable substrate underlying its transactions with customers or suppliers? I'm not saying there is none but if you're going to rip on HN users, fra…

A winery could assign a token to each physical bottle, and lets its customers freely buy (winery is involved) and then exchange their tokens based on the supposed bottle value ups and downs (winery is not involved any more). Then, from time to time, they come to the winery to take back a real bottle from a token. Admittedly, there is little to program, but we can imagine all sorts of auctions, games (tokens becoming…

Why would any of this need cryto? If you trust the winery to hold the wine you could trust them to rule the exchange. Each bottle could still have a token. Values could still rise and fall. All stored on a central exchange. These tokens issued by a trusted entity could perform the same function and can be cashed out.

The key feature of cryto is around connecting trustless entities. Once you centralize on a physical product stored in a trusted location by a trusted party you lose point involving cryto. Who cares how secure the token is when the winery can switch labels?

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#285

Post by nkuttler » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:35 AM UTC

bsnsmsksjs wrote: post #267

apatters wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say everyone on the planet is Ethereum enabled tomorrow. What is the business case for the winery to use it in your example? I get that Ethereum or any other crypto can be another payment option for their customers. Beyond that what use does a winery have for a programmable substrate underlying its transactions with customers or suppliers? I'm not saying there is none but if you're going to rip on HN users, fra…

I’ll bite. A winery could sell ownership of wine stored or wine yet to be made. The purchaser, if sold via an NFT, could resell that ownership with no interaction with the winery until claiming the wine at a later date. This means both parties no longer need any relationship between the initial sale and claiming the eventual goods. The winery will simply be able to wait for someone to return with proof of ownership a…

If you rely on a trusted entity (winery) you don't need a blockchain to do anything you just described.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#286

Post by EugeneG » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:36 AM UTC

bsnsmsksjs wrote: post #267

apatters wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say everyone on the planet is Ethereum enabled tomorrow. What is the business case for the winery to use it in your example? I get that Ethereum or any other crypto can be another payment option for their customers. Beyond that what use does a winery have for a programmable substrate underlying its transactions with customers or suppliers? I'm not saying there is none but if you're going to rip on HN users, fra…

I’ll bite. A winery could sell ownership of wine stored or wine yet to be made. The purchaser, if sold via an NFT, could resell that ownership with no interaction with the winery until claiming the wine at a later date. This means both parties no longer need any relationship between the initial sale and claiming the eventual goods. The winery will simply be able to wait for someone to return with proof of ownership a…

The question is can you really make it simultaneously cheap to trade and decentralized and always on. Or is the overhead of all that just make blockchain tech very awkward and suboptimal (especially since ultimately there's a centralized winery that honors the "claim" with actual wine - so no real need for decentralization). Instead why not just have a little centralized company that lets companies create ledgers of asset ownership for $300/month. If it's a real use case, any winery can sign up, etc.

Issue is blockchain tech doesn't actually solve anything

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#287

Post by shagie » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #269

netheril96 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember how Hacker News laughed at Facebook during its IPO. Hacker News are also against Google, TikTok, Snap, Instagram all the time. Investing against the popular opinions of Hacker News is an easy way to get rich.

I hope Facebook does not guzzle same amount of energy as Bitcoin. We don't need another nation level energy guzzler for a spy/disinformation network.

An article from a bit ago to put approximate scale of the services - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ethicallivingblog/20...

> Climate researchers say two Google searches emit 7g of CO2 – the same as boiling an electric kettle.

> ...

> If Wissner-Gross is correct then 3,500 tonnes of CO2 (500m x 0.000007 tonnes) are emitted every day through all of us performing Google searches. Or put another way, 1.28m tonnes a year. That's about the same as Laos emits each year, the 151st biggest emitting country in the world.

Compare: https://fortune.com/2021/11/06/offsetting-bitcoins-carbon-fo...

> All told, Bitcoin emits—by Forex Suggest’s estimate—some 57 million tons of CO2 annually, more than double Ethereum’s footprint. It’s noteworthy that for Bitcoin, all that energy generates a relatively low number of transactions. Because its distributed network is so slow, its users post only around 12,000 purchases, sales, and transfers on the blockchain each hour. That’s approximately 115 million transactions a year. By contrast, Ethereum handles over four times those volumes—devouring, once again, far less than half the juice. The result: Bitcoin deploys an incredible 707 kWh of electricity per transaction, 11 times as much as Ethereum, and emits 1,061 pounds, or half a ton, of CO2 every time you tap the app to buy a latte or zap a fraction to a buddy who beat you on a golf bet. Ethereum sends less than one-tenth of that carbon skyward for each purchase or transfer it processes.

----

So, roughly, bitcoin has a footprint that is ~45x larger than Google search.

Facebook is probably lighter than that, though that's only a "its probably lighter than that" guess.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#288

Post by Acrobatic_Road » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #46

Uehreka wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said this in another comment on this post, but check out ENS. I’ve been a blockchain skeptic for a long time (and still am about art NFTs and most other things) but the idea of “SSO without a company attached” feels like something the mainstream public actually does want (think of all the negative public sentiment around big tech companies harvesting data and the grudging acceptance people have of their dependence…

The mainstream public doesn't want their identity attached to a private key that they can lose. And if you're letting someone else store the key, then it's just another form of "Login with X".

>And if you're letting someone else store the key, then it's just another form of "Login with X".

Luckily there's a way to have other people store your key without the key ever technically existing outside your own computer - https://app.tor.us/, and using common web services (like email) to retrieve everything you need to construct the key in your browser whenever you need it. You can even use this to send money to a public key before its corresponding private key has ever been constructed by anyone! Meaning you can send money to someone who lacks a wallet by email, or by telegram, or by discord, or by reddit, or by anything, and they retrieve the money without anyone else ever seeing their keys or having to manage their keys themselves.

How it works: https://tech.tor.us/

Disclaimer: NOT associated with torus, just think its cool.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#289

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:57 AM UTC

EugeneG wrote: post #283

dperfect wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Output: Digital services, site subscriptions, digital assets, in-game items, NFT's representing real world assets held by trusted companies (wine, event tickets, tokenized securities). > None of this requires oracles and exists today. While I only mentioned oracles specifically, I should have clarified: I'm referring both to oracles (making queries to external data sources and providing the results to the blockchai…

Yep. Blockchain says I own this case of wine... but the other guy wont give me my wine! Who do I call? The physical, centralized police and the centralized legal system that back it. Without that legal system recognizing and honoring it, it's worthless. And if it all depends on my centralized legal system, then who cares about the decentralized blockchain. Might as well put it in a table in a database instance runnin…

You could say the same thing about property deeds, contracts, etc. The fact that the laws of physics still apply in the world and thus people can still physically take things from you, harm you, etc. is hardly an argument against any specific method for establishing and recording ownership or contracts.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#290

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 6:01 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #284

kryptonomist wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A winery could assign a token to each physical bottle, and lets its customers freely buy (winery is involved) and then exchange their tokens based on the supposed bottle value ups and downs (winery is not involved any more). Then, from time to time, they come to the winery to take back a real bottle from a token. Admittedly, there is little to program, but we can imagine all sorts of auctions, games (tokens becoming…

Why would any of this need cryto? If you trust the winery to hold the wine you could trust them to rule the exchange. Each bottle could still have a token. Values could still rise and fall. All stored on a central exchange. These tokens issued by a trusted entity could perform the same function and can be cashed out. The key feature of cryto is around connecting trustless entities. Once you centralize on a physical p…

> Why would any of this need cryto? If you trust the winery to hold the wine you could trust them to rule the exchange.

That’s a little like saying “why would the winery need Apple to make computers for them, the winery could just develop their own computer hardware and software.” It doesn’t make sense for most wineries to develop its own online exchange system, and the fact that it’s technically possible for a winery to develop its own exchange system doesn’t mean that all existing exchange systems are pointless.