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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#281

Post by zozbot234 »

wyager wrote: post #273
ironman1478 wrote: post #249

These efforts feel misguided. Black and Latino people aren't bad at math because of the language used in math education (most of the language seems neutral from what I remembered), it's because they are largely poor, due to structural racism or they are first generation immigrants who didn't come to work in tech or something. They're just poor and unfortunately it's hard to really do anything when you're poor in Amer…

The PC model that unequal outcomes would disappear if you simply addressed poverty, fought putative structural discrimination via affirmative action, etc. has been repeatedly applied and disproven at massive scale dozens of times since the 60s. It's a nice story but it doesn't seem to reflect reality at all. I don't think the model of "it's because the way math is phrased is racist" is a better model - in fact, it's…

The 'PC model' has actually done very little to address poverty. If anything, it has actively perpetuated detrimental attitudes.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#282

Post by [deleted] »

psutor wrote: post #180
nemothekid wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that make Grade 12 18 ~ 19 years of age? Has the school age been moved up a year? I vaguely remember the oldest kids in high school being 18.

Don't know if parent has been edited to correct something, but: 9: 14-15 10: 15-16 11: 16-17 12: 17-18

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#283

Post by nefitty »

sokoloff wrote: post #256
nefitty wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking out from this moment in history, if I wanted to prepare someone for the future, STEM wouldn't be the main focus. I know it's anathema to say. In a world where computers fold proteins and predict programmer's intentions, the value of technical knowledge is showing decay. In the world we're hurtling toward, we don't need people who can recite the Pythagorean theorem. We need people who can cooperate with other…

> We need people who can cooperate with other humans, who can leverage technology to achieve their goals and who can evaluate information critically. Throw money at THOSE problems. Sounds to me like you want some science, technology, engineering, and math curriculum.

I was leaning more towards curriculum that trains being able to feel and act on empathy. You know, like art or whatever.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#284

Post by tremon »

cortesoft wrote: post #233
holonomically wrote: post #7

I was doing algebra and Russian math word problems in 4th grade (maybe earlier, it's been a while). What exactly is the logic of pushing back mathematical training to later grades? [1] 1: https://www.edhelper.com/geography/Russia_Math1.htm

And Mozart was writing concertos at 5. Prodigies existing shouldn't define how we educate people.

Should Mozart have been kept away from musical instruments because his peers weren't at his level? In other words, should people existing define how we educate prodigies? Who gets to determine who is a prodigy and who isn't, and at what age?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#285

Post by nemothekid »

psutor wrote: post #180
nemothekid wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that make Grade 12 18 ~ 19 years of age? Has the school age been moved up a year? I vaguely remember the oldest kids in high school being 18.

Don't know if parent has been edited to correct something, but: 9: 14-15 10: 15-16 11: 16-17 12: 17-18

Ah that's right. I should have just written in out rather than just adding 4.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#286

Post by dragonwriter »

primitivesuave wrote: post #257
spacecaps wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone interested, I think it's probably worth actually digging into Equitable Math's "Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction" [0]. I just skimmed some of it based on your link, and the majority of it just reads like "stop teaching math poorly." I was looking for some real burn-down-the-establishment stuff, but it's honestly pretty prosaic. For example: > "There is a greater focus on getting the "right" an…

Page 7 is where they completely lose me. "Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways" is a manifestation of white supremacy? If you click on that item, it takes you to a page where they suggest non-standard classroom activities like "Have students create TikTok videos, silent films, or cartoons about mathematical concepts or procedures." I'm pretty open minded about education pedagogy…

> "Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways" is a manifestation of white supremacy?

“White supremacy” is an accurate but excessively polarizing term; “cultural favoritism in favor of status quo elites, whose preferences and cultural practices are encoded in the prescribed methods of demonstration” would perhaps both be less inflammatory and easier to see the connections between the specific practice and the broader problem.

> I'm pretty open minded about education pedagogy, but you completely lose me (and 99% of teachers) when you suggest creating TikTok videos

I think the particular examples are not because any of them are individually to be preferred but because providing a range including them illustrates the general principle, which is “provide students a broad set of mechanisms to demonstrate understanding rather than a narrow set of forms, as the latter introduces cultural biases based on comfort/familiarity with the form, both for the child immediately and among parents and the rest of the support network on which they rely.”

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#287

Post by tn13 »

bko wrote: post #71
darth_avocado wrote: post #14

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. Since the organizations feel ashamed that they're failing certain demographics as evidenced by being under-represented in the advanced classes, they're just scrapping the advanced classes for everyone. Truly disgraceful

This will make life even worse for the marginalized students as well off students will have parents or other sources of learning algebra.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#288

Post by chrisseaton »

sokoloff wrote: post #239
chrisseaton wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with high schools that have about half of their math faculty as Calculus teachers What does this mean? Is there some special qualification or licence to be allowed to teach calculus?

Both my parents were public school math teachers. There are gradations of teaching qualifications* in some districts and, even where there aren’t, the math department head usually knows which teachers are incapable of teaching beyond Algebra II or incapable of teaching specifically Calculus. Presumably, if a teacher has ever been assigned to teach a Calculus class, they are a Calculus teacher. * Concrete example: our…

I don't really get how you can be a mathematics teacher and not know enough to be able to teach calculus? Like surely you've done calculus yourself?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#289

Post by thereisnospork »

holonomically wrote: post #170
TimTheTinker wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Equalizing outcomes" is exactly what they want to do. They seek to accomplish this by pulling down those who would otherwise excel, not by solving the real problems that are preventing people from excelling in the first place. Part of the problem is that outcomes can never be equalized. It's a fallacy to try to force everyone into the same educational mold. A statistical normal distribution will always occur. Better…

What's the fallacy in teaching everyone the same things? That seems like a good way to equalize life outcomes and give everyone the required skills for succeeding in contemporary society.

In order to teach everyone the same thing you can only teach as much as the stupidest and least motivated person can grasp.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#290

Post by dkhenry »

csa wrote: post #247
dkhenry wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing distributed along the bell curve is adults who are willing to help the kids. Yes for some kids it will come pretty easy, even at very young ages, but even very young children can learn these concepts if you would just spend some time teaching it to them. When you have a system set up to force one adult to teach 30+ children you will never be able to spend the time required to ensure everyone gets the c…

> but even very young children can learn these concepts if you would just spend some time teaching it to them. Many decades of cognitive science disagree with you. See Piaget for one of the earlier researchers on this topic. Even though his original ideas have been refuted or refined, the basic premises of his ideas are still prominent among the large group of modern researchers that some people dub neo-Piagetians.

Many decades of the lived experiences of children in other countries disagrees with that research. Children in eastern European countries learn advanced concepts from as early as second grade. In asian countries they are introducing Algebra in 6th grade or earlier. This is the problem California finds its self in. They have wonderful "research" showing that kids pick up the concepts better if you wait till they are older, but they ignore the lived reality of the rest of the world, that with the correct teaching you could actually have them doing this work at a much younger age.

Even here in America, tutoring schools such as Russian Math or Kumon are successfully teaching advanced topics to children at much younger ages than the public schools. I know the temptation is to just say its its high aptitude kids that are being sent to these after school programs, but it's not. It is just rich kids whose parents want to give their children a leg up. Almost all children could learn the topics, but we won't put in the effort

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