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Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

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Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU is not what it once was. I will not donate to them. Even the EFF is growing questionable. I would definitely be curious what recommendations people have.

I am out of the loop on this one. What has the ACLU become today, and why is the EFF growing questionable?

From my understanding the ACLU used to stand for the civil rights of everybody and even defended KKK members. But now they have taken sides on various social justice movements and targeted groups that oppose these sides. Instead of fighting for civil rights like they used to, they pick and choose which rights they think are okay to violate if it's for the "right cause". It goes completely against their old motto.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#282
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped supporting the ACLU when they started doing this: Fighting against due process: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/see-you-court-aclu-sues... claiming there's no men: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1196877415810813955 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1199725066302308354 Telling families to discuss pronouns: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1250795126584217602 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/st…

In other words, you're transphobic and you think everyone else should go along with you. To put it rather mildly, that's not what ACLU is about and that's not even what they should be about. You don't get to decide what is "really" about freedom. You shouldn't try. Leave that to the people whose rights are being threatened in the specific case in question.

My free speech rights are being threatened. Does it matter what identity merit badges I own to have rights? You may be surprised what group I ostensibly am one of, and yet I find their pushing of this anti-free speech to be atrocious.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#284

While I applaud Signal's response I expect this entire event (subpoena and response) will be provided as one of the exhibits to congress by the Department of Justice to justify their request that it be unlawful to provide such services. The DoJ will say, "See, here is this horrible crime we are investigating and because this company chose to make it impossible for law enforcement, with a warrant and a subpoena to get…

"Do you have no other way of investigating these criminals?" "Could you not put an officer out to surveille them?", Your argument kind of falls on itself there --> We can surveil them in person, but not digitally? Why? I think the tech crowd has this wrong. The issue - as you have indicated - is not 'By What Means To Surveil'. The issues are: Legitimacy, Proportionality, Oversight. Messages, tech, sign language, in p…

> Your argument kind of falls on itself there --> We can surveil them in person, but not digitally? Why?

Because, before the internet, when surveillance was a lot of work, this prevented the abuse that is mass surveillance.

Only now do we see how much democracy relied on this natural limitation of state power for civil rights. It was never just the need for warrants that maintained civil rights. Remember the Verizon FISA court order authorized surveillance of millions, and that was just one order of hundreds.

Power corrupts. State power should be sufficient, but minimal. Being allowed to do physical surveillance only is sufficient to reduce crime rates to the point where most people can safely neglect that crime exists at all, and it is less power because it does not scale.

You mention proportionality yourself. Proportionality means that something is not done if the same objective (finding a given murderer) can be achieved in a less rights-infringing way. Proportionality at the policy level, means that a surveillance power may not exist, if its objective (such as safety from murder, i.e. low rates of murder, high chance of finding murderers etc.) can be achieved without the power or with a power that is less likely to be abused or that infringes rights of suspects less. (I admit this is somewhat of an editorialization; the technical meaning of proportionality is in [1]. To be clear the existing legal proportionality principle does not try to directly minimize power; but it does usually present an obstacle whenever new powers are created by law)

Limiting power is simpler and less error-prone than allowing power and adding control structures like warrant requirements for the power. It is thus better, if the outcome is the same.

---

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#European...

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you name some please? Do you mean like ACLU (BCCLA in Canada)

The ACLU is not what it once was. I will not donate to them. Even the EFF is growing questionable. I would definitely be curious what recommendations people have.

Since several people are asking why the ACLU isn't what it once was, let me answer that.

In 1978, the ACLU successfully defended the right of neo-Nazis to march in the predominantly Jewish town of Skokie, Illinois. This action reflected their commitment to free speech, regardless of how offensive the speech might be. The movie "Skokie" and documentary "Mighty Ira" are based on this event-- I highly recommend them because this is an important piece of U.S. history.

In contrast, the modern ACLU has backed away from this stance. A leaked ACLU memo[1] says that before they take a free speech case, they will consider the "context of the proposed speech; the potential effect on marginalized communities; the extent to which the speech may assist in advancing the goals of white supremacists or others whose views are contrary to our values; and the structural and power inequalities in the community in which the speech will occur."

[1] https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#286
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I do. EFF, Wikimedia, ACLU (Only EFF is really for this particular issue though)

I stopped supporting the ACLU when they started doing this: Fighting against due process: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/see-you-court-aclu-sues... claiming there's no men: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1196877415810813955 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1199725066302308354 Telling families to discuss pronouns: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1250795126584217602 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/st…

Good sources, thanks for sharing. I didn't know a lot about the ACLU prior to this thread(other than in the news), but I agree - this is way beyond the scope of what the ACLU has been known for for years. Is there some other group that sticks to more neutrally standing up for folks, politics be damned?

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#287

>Because everything in Signal is end-to-end encrypted by default, the broad set of personal information that is typically easy to retrieve in other apps simply doesn’t exist on Signal’s servers. The E2EE in Signal only protects the actual content of messages. In the case where Signal takes an assertive action, and the users are not paying any attention to their "safety numbers" (probably the most common case) they co…

> Does American law even allow such warrants? Even worse - American laws allow the US government agencies to actually access the servers directly (or even add other servers or routers) in the data centre of the service provider, and the service provider is legally obliged to not tell anyone about it!

Out of interest, is there a place where this practice doesn't exist (genuinely don't know), where service providers are allowed to tell targets they are being subject to a warrant?

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You’re attacking a straw man. I never proposed anything other than recognizing the cost of encryption. I assume you're referring to this sentence in my comment: What you seem to be advocating is that everyone's privacy should be forfeited so police can get information without doing, you know, police work. Note that I said seem . Which, in this context, means that's what I understood you to be saying. Thank you for c…

Actually the word 'attack' comes from the expression that gave rise to the logical fallacy 'attacking a straw man.' [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I'm familiar with that particular logical fallacy. However, I fail to see how that applies here.

What is the "strawman" you appear to believe that I've set up and then attempted to knock down?

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#289
post #196

Anybody concerned about these issues should consider donating to their favourite non profit that can have an impact that works in the area. Most HN users can afford $20/year pretty easily (others could afford $200/month and not even notice it) As they say, “Put your money where your mouth is.”

See the discussion elsewhere in this thread about Donor-Advised Funds for donations.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#290
Related: does anyone know why the Signal-Server code allows for toggling request logging? [0] If this allows for logging raw HTTP(S) requests server-side, presumably this could be grabbing the passwords generated and held on each device used for authentication [1]?

There's also no mention of TLS termination in the Signal-Server repository on GitHub, or TLS between the Redis cluster in use. If FBI or NSA has compromised the AWS VPC, then all of this network traffic would be in the clear to be picked up behind the load balancer(s).

The Account DynamoDB table [2] also seems to indicate more information is tied to the phone number in cleartext than what is indicated by the response?

[0]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/14f5271c2012...

[1]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/14f5271c2012...

[2]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/14f5271c2012...

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