The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it • Hacker News Board

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#281

Post by rodgerd » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:02 AM UTC

Zarathust wrote: post #85

kens wrote: post #64

The article mentions the ban in 2006 of over-the-counter sales of Sudafed (pseudoephedrine). One of my favorite satirical articles is "A simple and convenient synthesis of pseudoephedrine from N-methylamphetamine". (The joke being that Sudafed is now hard to purchase while meth is readily available.) https://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume19/v19i3...

In Canada you can still buy that over the counter. You get id-ed and they keep a record of your purchases, but since it's now generic pills it is now much cheaper than it was before

New Zealand banned it some years ago and I'm still pissed off. The supposed replacement is clinically useless, and I resent suffering through massive head pain from clogged sinuses every winter, while professional gangs still make money hand over fist from meth.

I was in Vegas some years back and got some under the laxer US rules, and have enjoyed a few years of having it available, but alas my supply has run dry.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#282

Post by Scoundreller » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:13 AM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #279

Scoundreller wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on a number of California stores they investigated, the cost for an eighth will now range from around $50 to $65. > told The New York Times in September that the black market price for an eighth of an ounce is around $20. Just to share some Canadian numbers, in Ontario, CAD$3.57/gram at the low end through the government store. Of course you could purchase $10/gram or $15/gram if you wanted. On the black mark…

I didn't know this about Canada -- it's interesting. It's not clear to me how the black market should go for more if you can just go into a legal place and buy there. What am I missing? Perhaps you need a prescription or something, and people can't get that, so they pay a premium on the black market? Or maybe the legal market limits how much you can buy? Something has to support a higher black market price, since aft…

Massive over-investment in grow facilities on the regulated side. Think dotcom on IPOs starting ~5 years ago promising massive profits and owning the market.

Government website in Ontario does free delivery. Same day in bigger areas for $8. https://ocs.ca/blogs/article/ocs-same-day-and-express-delive...

Retail shops usually charge more than government website. We're flooded with those too.

Licensed Producers are literally sitting on tons of unsold inventory that will likely never sell and never export, and now racing to the bottom on price to get some revenue.

There will be a shakeout.

Because of the above inventory problems, it's possible what you're buying from the legal market has been sitting on a shelf for a while, but under controlled atmosphere, that's not the end of the world. Some places also gamma irradiate their product, which some people have an issue with, but it does keep down microbiological risk and extend shelf life.

Each province has different pricing, so its possible some are just charging a lot more and the black market websites sell for the same price everywhere.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#283

Post by xyzzyz » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:16 AM UTC

cleansingfire wrote: post #274

xyzzyz wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very much false, and completely contrary to the actual history. War on drugs only happened because of greatly increased social dysfunction due to drugs, not the other way around. It enjoyed wide social support at the time it was started, precisely because people saw how damaging the drugs are to their communities. The idea that drug-related social dysfunction is an effect of war on drugs is yet another of tho…

No. The war on drugs was an acknowledged political act to disenfranchise black people and the anti (Vietnam) war movement. Lopez, German (March 22, 2016). "Nixon official: real reason for the drug war was to criminalize black people and hippies". Vox. Archived from the original on May 30, 2017. Retrieved June 13, 2017.

Which is why when the War on Drugs started, the Congressional Black Caucus met with Nixon to urge him to stop it.

…no, they didnt, in fact they urged him to do the opposite: to ramp it up as fast as possible, precisely to stop the damage the drugs were causing to black communities.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/16/212620886...

The linked material came out on NPR in 2013, before it was decided that the history needs to be revised. I recommend taking a look at it before it is also revised, to remove all references to what had actually happened, to how black leaders were main force behind the War on Drugs.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#284

Post by xyzzyz » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:18 AM UTC

sdhfjg wrote: post #278

xyzzyz wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your own first link discusses this: > In the first five years after drug policy reform, use of illegal drugs rose slightly among the general population but fell again in the following five years. I remember looking at the actual figures, and what happened was that use of heroin in Portugal went down significantly, and use of all other drugs went up significantly, giving slight rise in total drug use on net. > Use amo…

>> Use among 15-24 year olds fell throughout the decade, >This implies that use among other groups than 15-24 year old had not fell throughout the decade. Within the context of logic, that is not an implication.

No, but it is within context of narrative crafting practices. If it fell across all age groups, they would have said so, instead of restricting their claim to narrow group of youths. To misunderstand it is either sign of extreme naivety, or willful ignorance.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#285

Post by lend000 » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:19 AM UTC

AlotOfReading wrote: post #262

chucksta wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meth was legal until the 70s, society functioned. The current problem is another side effect of the war on drugs https://www.history.com/topics/crime/history-of-meth

According to period newspapers, it very much was a problem almost immediately after public introduction in the late 40s and early 50s. Here's an example from Australia, which banned it by 1955: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71874426?searchTe...

Reading today's newspapers, you'd think Southern California just survived the apocalypse after the half inch of rain last weekend.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#286

Post by firecall » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:20 AM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #281

Zarathust wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada you can still buy that over the counter. You get id-ed and they keep a record of your purchases, but since it's now generic pills it is now much cheaper than it was before

New Zealand banned it some years ago and I'm still pissed off. The supposed replacement is clinically useless, and I resent suffering through massive head pain from clogged sinuses every winter, while professional gangs still make money hand over fist from meth. I was in Vegas some years back and got some under the laxer US rules, and have enjoyed a few years of having it available, but alas my supply has run dry.

Can you order it from an online Australian pharmacy?

Or know someone here who can ship some over to you?

They ID you in Oz, but it's fairly easy to get. Pharmacists know the PE stuff is junk!

I've also found Ritalin works as a decongestant too! (for which I have an ADHD prescription)

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#287

Post by onlyrealcuzzo » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:25 AM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #284

sdhfjg wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Use among 15-24 year olds fell throughout the decade, >This implies that use among other groups than 15-24 year old had not fell throughout the decade. Within the context of logic, that is not an implication.

No, but it is within context of narrative crafting practices. If it fell across all age groups, they would have said so, instead of restricting their claim to narrow group of youths. To misunderstand it is either sign of extreme naivety, or willful ignorance.

By your same logic, if it rose, they would have said so. They didn't.

Perhaps it was unchanged meaningfully / statistically significant enough to comment?

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#288

Post by xyzzyz » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:31 AM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #287

xyzzyz wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it is within context of narrative crafting practices. If it fell across all age groups, they would have said so, instead of restricting their claim to narrow group of youths. To misunderstand it is either sign of extreme naivety, or willful ignorance.

By your same logic, if it rose, they would have said so. They didn't. Perhaps it was unchanged meaningfully / statistically significant enough to comment?

> By your same logic, if it rose, they would have said so. They didn't.

No, because they aren’t uninterested, unbiased observers just reporting the facts. The entire linked article is pushing very specific policy, and it is only expected that they will only raise arguments in favor of the policy they are proposing.

> Perhaps it was unchanged meaningfully / statistically significant enough to comment?

No. I looked at the data, and reported it accurately. Drug use went up overall, and if you disregard drop in heroin use (though only among young people, it also went up among those 35+), use increased significantly. Drop in heroin use among youth has offset the growth in use of other drugs.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#289

Post by actually_a_dog » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:34 AM UTC

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #178

actually_a_dog wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you take the normal dose (10-30mg) it can cause some euphoria but for the most part it helps you focus, gives energy (makes you more happy, talkative.) But when it is abused (60+mg) it can cause serious psychosis with all kinds of mental side effects. Background: I'm prescribed 20mg/day of extended release Adderall, via a legitimate ADHD diagnosis. If we take the article's "meth is 2x as potent as Adderall" st…

This is off the top of my head, so no citations, but d-methamphetamine is something like 30% more potent than d-amphetamine. The fact you're taking Adderall makes the comparison more complicated though because you're not taking d-amp. In general d-amp is 3-4x more cognitively powerful than l-amp. So we can consider l-amp to be about 25% the potency of d-amp, except IIRC the 75:25 d-amp:l-amp ratio of adderall synergi…

Thank you!

I hadn't expected anyone would answer my comment, much less that anyone would provide a concrete reference point that was actually within my experience. I have used MDMA and experienced the high you're describing. For reference, I was high enough that I felt it certainly would not have been a good idea to try driving my car anywhere, but not so high that I felt taking my dog for a walk around the block would have been at all risky.

I found it pleasant, and wished it would last longer, but I don't think it's anything I'd go for if i were only 10% as intense and came with all the twitchy/tweaker effects. The jaw clenching I got from MDMA was more than enough of that.

But, as far as this:

> See you're amphetamine tolerant. Give your 20mg dose to an amphetamine naive individual, and they will get the euphoria for the first couple days at least of taking it. The euphoria quickly fades, though.

When I said "never," I meant "never." I didn't experience it the first time I took amphetamine, the second time, or this morning.

I have experienced some mild euphoria from prescribed dosages of opioids in the past, and, as I mentioned, I've experienced the high of MDMA, so, I think I have some sort of reference point here, although I'm sure they're very different highs.

Maybe it's because the starting dosages my doctors had me trying out initially were very small. Maybe it's because that initial dosage was 10-15 years ago, and I don't really remember it well (which would imply it wasn't very memorable). Or, maybe I did experience some euphoria, but just couldn't classify it as such because of my limited drug experience thus far.

In any case, as you said, I am not amphetamine-naive anymore and certainly don't get high off my medication at prescribed dosages, or even somewhat higher than prescribed dosages.

Again, thank you for helping me understand a bit of the appeal of smoking meth, without actually smoking meth. :-)

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#290

Post by caymanjim » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 4:41 AM UTC

So the meth is cheaper, more abundant, more physically dangerous, and more socially destructive than it was before they banned ephedrine. Can we get our good decongestants back now please?