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A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

economist.com

281–290 of 375 posts

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly from my time there many of SF's homeless are migrants: they're not people who lived in SF and became destitute, but people who moved in/were moved (tales of cities putting homeless en masse on Greyhounds to SF abound) from places with worse weather and economies. In that sense I understand Newsom's position: if homeless are already migrating from all over the US due to life being easier in San…

Hmmm… I‘ve heard conflicting sources on this and that studies show that SF homeless don’t have a higher degree of having moved from elsewhere. The vast majority has been here a considerable amount of time. Maybe I’m misremembering though.

Pulling a 2019 source from wikipedia, over 30% of San Francisco's homeless recently came from outside San Francisco, and only 50% had lived in San Francisco longer than 10 years before most recently becoming homeless:

https://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019HIRDRep...

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#282
post #221

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

Sleeping Rough and not affording homes are related. The Bay Area definitely needs to build more houses. However, in San Fransicko and in other places it is pointed out that New York City, that also has astronomical housing prices and also doesn't build enough, has a fraction of the people sleeping rough that SF does. NYC has lots of temporary shelter for people who are homeless. SF doesn't have enough. From https://m…

It's not only that north-eastern winters are brutal. There's more to it than that.

Yes, NYC housing is very expensive, but that's because Manhattan is the most densely populated island in the world having a population greater than 150,000 people. Yes, you can squeeze a few more people into NYC proper, but there are physical limits that cannot be overcome, and New York is as close to those physical limits as anywhere else in the world.

The New York metro area does not have those same physical limits, and is much more dynamic than California with regards to new construction and real estate sales—at all pricing levels—as a result. Yes, as you get closer to Manhattan things get more expensive. But Manhattan is not the only housing option for people—even for people who don't own a car.

I live and work in a town of ~25,000 people that is connected to Manhattan by rail. In the past few years we have seen several hundred rental units be constructed in the center of the town. This is not atypical. Similar buildings have been going up throughout the region for years (although most affordable options are connected by bus rather than by train).

I have to agree with GP's conclusion that California's problems primarily stem from its tax system—which is objectively ridiculous. If every time you move houses your tax rate resets and suddenly you are paying 10x (or more) in taxes than you did previously, why would you ever sell?

In the NYC metro area, most of the people who in California would be suburban NIMBY types live and work in high-property-tax areas in relatively big homes while they raise their kids and send them to public school (which are well-funded by high property taxes). It is very common that when their kids go to college they sell their homes and move to smaller places (or to, say, Florida). They are incentivized to do this because doing so will lower their tax bill. As a result, the real estate market is very liquid, with most homes turning over every 15 to 30 years.

In California the tax system works in the opposite manner, by disincentivizing sales. Even inherited property isn't sold, because doing so would result in a reduction in the net cash flow that the property can yield. Isn't it the case that most heirs typically sell property they inherit, in order to have access to liquid funds that they can use in a manner that is more consistent with their own personal needs and preferences? Not in California! In California, if you inherit a house, suddenly you are a landlord.

None of this is to say that there isn't political resistance to higher-density housing in the northeast. There certainly is. However, the way that this resistance is typically mobilized is through the use of zoning restrictions. Zoning restrictions can be amended—and have been amended—as the need for housing has grown.

If people are not willing to sell their properties—if the real estate market is not liquid enough in a certain area—then new development will not occur, regardless as to whether or not zoning ordinances are changed. In fact, the primary advocates for zoning changes are often developers who want to build specific projects. If there are enough properties for sale in an area to attract the interest of developers (and capital that legacy owners may not have access to), then it is more likely that there will be effective advocacy on a local level to amend zoning rules that will result in a more profitable use of those properties.

If no one is selling, however, and if no one is buying, then no one has any interest in changing anything with regards to how the land is used.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as California is willing to pay market value for said house, then sure. Otherwise, they have no more right to my property than anyone else. The USA isn't a communist country or a dictatorship, and property rights dominate except in the most dire circumstances. So it really isn't a “solved problem”. What would work is shutting the NIMBY's down and letting housing get rezoned by developers for multi-home units.

How does one determine the correct "market value" of a property where government zoning laws prevent building more dense housing? Perhaps you advocate for removing these zoning laws and then letting the market clear?

The property rights absolutist solution would be to build a wall on publicly owned land blockading the private property and reducing its value to nothing and then buying it from the owner at its new market price of zero.

When this happens in real life they can apply to the government for an easement, but that's practically communism, so we wouldn't allow that in this thought experiment.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/landlocked.asp

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#284

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

You've given this some thought. What I don't understand is why you think cities should provide shelter for people who don't contribute to them. If you can't make a city a better place - you should have shelter, somewhere cheap and distant. If you get your life together there, you can come and try living in a city again. Living in a city should be a privilege, not a right - cities take a lot of work and if you aren't…

I don't think that is such a good idea. Some countries have the right to living anywhere in a country written in their constitution.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#285
The sad thing is the comments

I knew there was an unusual level of homelessness in America, i didn't know people cared so little

I dont want to conclude the problem is these attitudes, but the relative distance between the average opinion here, and how China treats you is what?

--

The CCP leadership care about materialism and power, before other people; and simplistically, but not incorrectly, that is why they abuse and lie

Certainly on average the comments here reduce your distance to them

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#286

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

I live in Charlotte and we have a big, growing cluster of tents as well as rising "homelessness" in other areas of downtown as well. The other day, more than half of people I saw walking on the streets were in a bad way.

So I don't think the extra space and houses is doing much.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#287
post #221

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

Sleeping Rough and not affording homes are related. The Bay Area definitely needs to build more houses. However, in San Fransicko and in other places it is pointed out that New York City, that also has astronomical housing prices and also doesn't build enough, has a fraction of the people sleeping rough that SF does. NYC has lots of temporary shelter for people who are homeless. SF doesn't have enough. From https://m…

Needing to build more houses is a myth pushed forward by nimbys and developers.

You can achieve the same and more by releasing unused housing back to market instead of sitting idle for speculative reasons.

Increasing property taxes seems like a first viable solution, but it has drawbacks. It can apparently br avoided in some cases and they wouldn't affect owners of empty lots or derelict ruins that need the release back to market the most.

This is solved by a tax on land value, not on propery value. Empty unused lots would get a massive tax, regardless of if there is a skyscraper on it or it is an empty space. High rise properties wouldn't get impacted much because the same tax would be amortized across many units. Properties outside of cities wouldn't get affected much, because land values outside of cities are low.

Land value tax is a mechanically brutally simple and effective solution to the problem of congestion in city centres. Politically completely infeasible, because if there is someone fighting tooth and nail against such policies, it is the nimbys who inherited at the right time - modern day aristocracy.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#288

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

I’m a lifelong renter that would love to see yimby policies put in place, but this is misleading.

Norway is cold. Show me a city where people can sleep outdoors year round without dying that doesn’t have homeless and then we can see what an effective solution looks like.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#289

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

I’m a lifelong renter that would love to see yimby policies put in place, but this is misleading. Norway is cold . Show me a city where people can sleep outdoors year round without dying that doesn’t have homeless and then we can see what an effective solution looks like.

Australia has roughly 116,000 homeless out of a population of 25,690,000 [1]

[1] https://www.salvationarmy.org.au/need-help/homelessness-supp...

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#290
post #258

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

> Charlotte, NC, a city with a lower population, built 160,000 new units. Charlotte, NC also has way more open space to expand than SF, which has none, surrounded by water on three sides and other cities to the south.

If only there were a third dimension of space.
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