Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there a proposed new language/definition? The article's discussion still seems to be centered on price. "her paper highlights how the consumer welfare view of antitrust fails to curb the predatory pricing". I said it elsewhere, but I not against the idea of trust-busting, but the industry analogies typically brought up don't really fit. The closest I can find in general discussion is that the services are a public…
Agreed. I don't think there are really any mainstream alternative proposals in the policy sphere, at least not that I've seen. I've seen technologists grapple with what might make sense, like Ben Thompson for instance, but they don't seem to have the ear of government actors. Which is why I'm so frustrated by the conflation with monopoly regulation. It is actively a distraction to the policy discussion. Every time th…
Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
281–290 of 335 posts
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#282Trust busting can seem like it’s anti free market, but when a company has a monopoly on a network it stops functioning as a company and basically becomes a government. The problem with Facebook/Amazon/Google is that they have a monopoly on a specific information network, for Facebook the social graph, internet discoverability for Google, and online shopping for Amazon. It’s similar to if a single company owned the ro…
Bing and yahoo contain near equal information networks and Google isn’t dominate in many important Asian regions.
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#283Sigh, another day, another blame of Facebook for destroying Snap. Fundamentally, products are always gonna get copied. Google tried to do it to Facebook, back when FB was the size that Snap was at the time, how well did that work? Fundamentally, while competing with a megacorp sucks monkey balls, Snap shot themselves in the foot with their boneheaded product strategy. They literally didn't invest in their Android app…
>They literally didn't invest in their Android app because they wanted to be exclusive Mind blown, I had no idea Snapchat was iOS exclusive. I was thinking just yesterday about how Clubhouse's strategy may (who knows really) have backfired, it seems to me by betting on FOMO-manufacturing they just gave time for others (like Twitter Spaces) to catch up before they filled a niche.
> I was thinking just yesterday about how Clubhouse's strategy may (who knows really) have backfired, it seems to me by betting on FOMO-manufacturing
I was so fed up by the lack of the Clubhouse app on Android that I made one myself using reverse-engineered API docs. And, I managed to do it right when it was on top of its popularity. The amount of attention (and not very smart questions from journalists) I got was absolutely mind-blowing. Who would've known that a for-fun 2-day project could do that?..
By the time they did finally release an official Android app several months later, Clubhouse was largely forgotten.
I'll never understand this thing with an excellent iOS app but the Android app being an afterthought. No, there's not THAT much fragmentation any more. This excuse is no longer valid. You really only run into device-specific bugs when you use low-level stuff like video codecs, but even then, these are rare.
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#284The problem with these types of articles is that it doesn't contain a single actionable step on how one would go about breaking up these monopolies. It's a lot of "well, we did it with the electrical providers and telephone providers so we should do it with google." Well, you can take a national utility and split it across geographic regions so local calls or electricity bills go into the pockets of the region you ar…
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#285The problem with these types of articles is that it doesn't contain a single actionable step on how one would go about breaking up these monopolies. It's a lot of "well, we did it with the electrical providers and telephone providers so we should do it with google." Well, you can take a national utility and split it across geographic regions so local calls or electricity bills go into the pockets of the region you ar…
The problem is not really a monopoly (or at least market dominant position) in one business, it's using that dominant position to gain dominance in other businesses.
So, you split out the obvious things: youtube, search, adwords, media ads, g suite stuff, android + chrome OS, payment/wallet, cloud, some sort of bucket for the rest.
Require FRAND terms when baby Gs work with othet baby Gs and restrict the baby Gs from expanding into other lines of business. There's your actionable plan. It leaves you with a handful of mostly viable businesses that are still pretty dominant, but...
If YouTube has the same relationship with its ad network as any other video site could get, other video sites can have a better chance to compete.
Setting up an Android for people new to the internet won't require creating a gmail account and steer your choice of email providers, etc.
Geographic splits don't really make sense for Google. And really, I'm not sure it did for AT&T, except that local vs long distance was a useful split, and I don't know that a nationwide local phone company that can't connect long distance calls would make sense. We certainly didn't get competitive local residential phone service by breaking up AT&T. The telecom act of 1996 came closer to giving us that, until the FCC decided it didn't care.
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find this argument pretty interesting. It seems like if social networks decide to adapt open protocols, it would pretty much kill it. Which wouldn't be the worst outcome out there.
> It seems like if social networks decide to adapt open protocols, it would pretty much kill it. ...which is exactly why they never will. This is how you know they are behaving monopolistically. An analogous problem exists with media companies. Why do we all now have subscriptions to Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, etc. instead of just one? They don't seem to have a monopoly since there are so many. But we don't seem to have…
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#287The problem with these types of articles is that it doesn't contain a single actionable step on how one would go about breaking up these monopolies. It's a lot of "well, we did it with the electrical providers and telephone providers so we should do it with google." Well, you can take a national utility and split it across geographic regions so local calls or electricity bills go into the pockets of the region you ar…
> But now you just have two monopolies, and have not solved the problem of lack of competition in either video or search, which is ostensibly what you use to justfy these actions. The problem is not really a monopoly (or at least market dominant position) in one business, it's using that dominant position to gain dominance in other businesses. So, you split out the obvious things: youtube, search, adwords, media ads,…
However I don't think this will solve the issues raised in the original article or the general issues with monopoly.
People used to think that Microsoft had an unfair monopoly with its browser because of bundling. Well, Chrome took over market share pretty easily when it released something better. It turns out it wasn't bundling, but investing more dev resources than the competitor that made the difference. And you can do that if you have surplus profits from a monopoly. It is those profits that allow for more resources that make the difference, not any consumer-facing bundling problems.
So even if you completely eliminate the bundling, you'll still have a situation where off-shoot products by monopolies outcompete other self-funded products. Now, you have to complain not about bundling, but about subsidies -- basically making it illegal for the monopoly to branch out into another business, because all tech investment starts out as subsidies. But now you are really hurting innovation, because a large part -- I would say a large majority -- of innovation happens as subsidized R&D performed by monopolies. From the invention of C at Bell Labs to Android at Google. These are all side projects afforded to monopolies but not to private investors, who would never invest in such things. Thus no standard of consumer harm will result in making this illegal.
So you say, OK, we wont ban a firm from creating other products but we will ban it from purchasing companies. So that takes care of Youtube and Adwords, but not android, office, etc. But now if the monopoly has surplus profits, it has an edge at making competing products and outcompeting smaller incumbents. Yes, it's harder than just buying them, but you have not fundamentally changed the landscape. It's an improvement, yes, but only a marginal improvement.
It's really a tough call, and not at all the same thing as the previous US push on anti-trust, which was conceptually much simpler until you had the ill-advised ATT breakup, which showed the limits of the old approach. Merely longing for the old days of anti-trust in which we were busting up Standard Oil doesn't address any of the reasons why we have moved past that period.
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#288You don't get to bundle a friend list with a news feed with a messaging service, without an option for me to only consume one part of it, or a combination of my own choosing.
You don't get to bundle your political opinion in my search algorithm the same way you don't get to bundle surprise ingredients into my cookies. You get to provide the search service, you get to provide cookies, you don't get to provide magic cookies I don't understand or can make on my own with a bit of effort.
Your service is efficiency at scale, not arbitrary shit bundled with everything because of a power imbalance.
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The problem with Facebook/Amazon/Google is that they have a monopoly on a specific information network, for Facebook the social graph, internet discoverability for Google, and online shopping for Amazon. None of these things are a natural monopoly. Facebook only stays relevant by buying its competitors. You don't even need to break them up, just disable acquisitions. Then Instagram would be separate, WhatsApp would…
>Just stop letting them buy their competitors. And how would you stop them from simply replacing their competitors? From the article "Budding companies that resist being acquired are pruned through flagrant copying." Would you pass a law that said Facebook can't expand their business to do anything a competitor is doing? I can't see how that would fly.
Competent competitors will do that naturally. See TikTok vs Reels.
Re: Trust-Busting as the Unsexy Answer to Google and Facebook
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
> none of the three things you mentioned are anywhere close to monopolies. Yes they are. Imagine that I imported alligators to Washington[0] and set up a gumbo resturant in Seattle. I would have a (local) monopoly on alligator meat. The fact that you can easily buy beef or chicken from any number of other places doesn't change this, it just means that my monopoly isn't particularly relevant . Similarly, Facebook has…
No, Facebook is not a monopoly. Your gumbo restaurant example gets at part of the issue: you need to describe the market correctly at a bare minimum. Who are the competitors in the market OR, if there are none, why is the market definition you have offered the correct one? This is why the FTC lost their monopolization case against Facebook this January. Instead of offering a market definition, they made vague, hand-w…
The Monopoly is on social networks with the exact same features as Facebook, in literally every way, down to the last detail.
Yes, that is a monopoly.
The question that actually matters though, is how much substitute goods there are for Facebook.
But yes, Facebook absolutely has a Monopoly on the product that is exactly the same as Facebook.