Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

wikimediafoundation.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 316 posts

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#281

Post by thefringthing »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #272
KerrickStaley wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what's happening here though. China has for years put enormous effort into promoting its worldview on the China/Taiwan issue in every way it can, even though that worldview contradicts the facts on the ground. Taiwan is de-facto an independent country with its own government and military sovereignty, and the majority of citizens of Taiwan are happy with that arrangement. China saying that Wikipedia Taiwan…

Taiwan (i.e. the ROC) is not a "de-facto" country, it _is_ a country. I don't get the feeling you're anti-Taiwan, but I think calling Taiwan a "de-facto" implicitly questions its status and should be avoided.

This is just wrong.

As of today, the governments in Beijing and Taipei agree that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of it. That's the "One China" principle.

Taiwan does not assert that there is a sovereign country whose territory consists of the island of Taiwan. Taiwan's government still claims that the Republic of China still exists and that it is the legitimate state in all of China including Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Xinjiang. This position is accepted by very few countries.

The fact that they are able to act in many respects as though they are the government of a sovereign country whose territory consists of the island of Taiwan is what makes them a de facto country.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#282

Post by thefringthing »

anakaine wrote: post #280
CogitoCogito wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan (i.e. the ROC) is not a "de-facto" country, it _is_ a country. I don't get the feeling you're anti-Taiwan, but I think calling Taiwan a "de-facto" implicitly questions its status and should be avoided.

I'm reasonably certain the "de-facto" wording is used as Taiwan isn't actually recognised formally and fully as an independent country internationally. Thats not to say it shouldn't be, but it acknowledges the current truth.

They don't even officially acknowledge themselves to be an independent country; they claim all of China as their territory, not just Taiwan.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#283

Post by CogitoCogito »

thefringthing wrote: post #281
CogitoCogito wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan (i.e. the ROC) is not a "de-facto" country, it _is_ a country. I don't get the feeling you're anti-Taiwan, but I think calling Taiwan a "de-facto" implicitly questions its status and should be avoided.

This is just wrong. As of today, the governments in Beijing and Taipei agree that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of it. That's the "One China" principle. Taiwan does not assert that there is a sovereign country whose territory consists of the island of Taiwan. Taiwan's government still claims that the Republic of China still exists and that it is the legitimate state in all of China including Tibet,…

The ROC (i.e. what people mean when they say "Taiwan") and the PRC are most certainly two separate countries. The fact that they have largely overlapping land claims doesn't change that. The fact that they both historically claim to be the legitimate government of some no longer existent greater China doesn't change that. They are two separate countries. That is the current status quo.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#284

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

thefringthing wrote: post #281
CogitoCogito wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan (i.e. the ROC) is not a "de-facto" country, it _is_ a country. I don't get the feeling you're anti-Taiwan, but I think calling Taiwan a "de-facto" implicitly questions its status and should be avoided.

This is just wrong. As of today, the governments in Beijing and Taipei agree that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of it. That's the "One China" principle. Taiwan does not assert that there is a sovereign country whose territory consists of the island of Taiwan. Taiwan's government still claims that the Republic of China still exists and that it is the legitimate state in all of China including Tibet,…

> As of today ...

... the Taiwan independence movement claims only the island of Taiwan for the Taiwanese nation, and is a core aspect of the Pan Green Coalition, which has 56% of the legislative and the president.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#285

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

thefringthing wrote: post #282
anakaine wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reasonably certain the "de-facto" wording is used as Taiwan isn't actually recognised formally and fully as an independent country internationally. Thats not to say it shouldn't be, but it acknowledges the current truth.

They don't even officially acknowledge themselves to be an independent country; they claim all of China as their territory, not just Taiwan.

This is very much outdated and a relic of the times when anti-communist world powers believed they could maybe remove communism from mainland china. It is a believe held today only by a small minority. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3951560

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#286

Post by CogitoCogito »

thefringthing wrote: post #282
anakaine wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reasonably certain the "de-facto" wording is used as Taiwan isn't actually recognised formally and fully as an independent country internationally. Thats not to say it shouldn't be, but it acknowledges the current truth.

They don't even officially acknowledge themselves to be an independent country; they claim all of China as their territory, not just Taiwan.

The ROC definitely considers itself a country.

And I'd like to point out that the ROC and the PRC don't even have the same land claims. The PRC claims the mainland and Taiwan. The ROC claims the mainland, Taiwan, and Mongolia. Mongolia claims Mongolia. There are three separate countries making these claims.

The fact that (some of) their claims overlap doesn't magically mean that the ROC and PRC aren't two separate countries. It just means that they are two countries that claim more land than they control.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#287

Post by thefringthing »

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #284
thefringthing wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just wrong. As of today, the governments in Beijing and Taipei agree that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of it. That's the "One China" principle. Taiwan does not assert that there is a sovereign country whose territory consists of the island of Taiwan. Taiwan's government still claims that the Republic of China still exists and that it is the legitimate state in all of China including Tibet,…

> As of today ... ... the Taiwan independence movement claims only the island of Taiwan for the Taiwanese nation, and is a core aspect of the Pan Green Coalition, which has 56% of the legislative and the president.

It's true that Taiwan's official position no longer reflects either reality or the desires of its people.

I think it would be ideal of Taiwan could be come de jure independent and sovereign, but that would essentially require some deal between China and the USA which is certainly not forthcoming.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#288

Post by thefringthing »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #283
thefringthing wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just wrong. As of today, the governments in Beijing and Taipei agree that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of it. That's the "One China" principle. Taiwan does not assert that there is a sovereign country whose territory consists of the island of Taiwan. Taiwan's government still claims that the Republic of China still exists and that it is the legitimate state in all of China including Tibet,…

The ROC (i.e. what people mean when they say "Taiwan") and the PRC are most certainly two separate countries. The fact that they have largely overlapping land claims doesn't change that. The fact that they both historically claim to be the legitimate government of some no longer existent greater China doesn't change that. They are two separate countries. That is the current status quo.

Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? They claim to be the government of the Irish Republic declared in 1916 and claim the entire island of Ireland as the territory of that state. Claims are very cheap.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#289

Post by dragonwriter »

thefringthing wrote: post #288
CogitoCogito wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ROC (i.e. what people mean when they say "Taiwan") and the PRC are most certainly two separate countries. The fact that they have largely overlapping land claims doesn't change that. The fact that they both historically claim to be the legitimate government of some no longer existent greater China doesn't change that. They are two separate countries. That is the current status quo.

Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? They claim to be the government of the Irish Republic declared in 1916 and claim the entire island of Ireland as the territory of that state. Claims are very cheap.

> Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country?

Unlike both the ROC and the PRC, they don't actually govern anything in practice, irrespective of whether it is coextensive with their claims. Upthread post claimed the ROC and PRC are both governments of real and separate countries in practice, independent of their overlapping theoretical claims. Doesn't seem a related thing at all to your question.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#290

Post by CogitoCogito »

thefringthing wrote: post #288
CogitoCogito wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ROC (i.e. what people mean when they say "Taiwan") and the PRC are most certainly two separate countries. The fact that they have largely overlapping land claims doesn't change that. The fact that they both historically claim to be the legitimate government of some no longer existent greater China doesn't change that. They are two separate countries. That is the current status quo.

Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? They claim to be the government of the Irish Republic declared in 1916 and claim the entire island of Ireland as the territory of that state. Claims are very cheap.

> Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? They claim to be the government of the Irish Republic declared in 1916 and claim the entire island of Ireland as the territory of that state. Claims are very cheap.

Exactly claims are cheap. Hence why the PRC's claim that Taiwan is its territory is so worthless given that it has _never_ controlled it. Also why the ROC's claims to the mainland and Mongolia are so worthless given that they haven't controlled any of that for more than 70 years.

The claims are cheap and meaningless. The reality is that China and Taiwan are two separate countries.

Post reply on HN