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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#281

Post by croon »

roenxi wrote: post #267
cmsj wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

avoiding exercise doesn't cause people around you to get fatter though.

And everyone is going to get coronavirus sooner or later, regardless of how vaccinated the population is. Because if the virus was stopped dead by vaccination then it wouldn't matter what other people did, and if it isn't then ... vaccines aren't going to stop you catching it eventually. Besides, there have been crazy ideas floated like making an issue out of vaccinating people who have already had & recovered from C…

> Because if the virus was stopped dead by vaccination then it wouldn't matter what other people did, and if it isn't then ... vaccines aren't going to stop you catching it eventually.

I'm not sure if you chose this binary line of thinking or if it was by accident, but you present the outcomes based on a 0 or 100% efficacy when it's not the case.

It matters/ed what other people do, and if more people got vaccinated (or could do so earlier) it might've stopped covid. Whether it could now is a crap-shoot, but more protection is always better than less.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#282

Post by Broken_Hippo »

cmsj wrote: post #256
KingOfCoders wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care?" No we shouldn't, we don't turn people away who drove drunken with 200km/h and crashed.

those drunk drivers may have caused collateral injury/death in their crash, but once taken to an ER they can't infect those around them with crushed limbs and twisted metal.

We treat children and adults with pneumonia (among other things) in the ER, and they can infect others. Some illnesses simply make folks sick enough for the ER.

I'd not mind a way to put folks further down the list if they choose to be unvaccinated or have folks have a special waiting room - but the ER is no time to figure out if someone chose to be unvaccinated or not. It would take up even more time and resources from an already strained system.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#283

Post by makomk »

nradov wrote: post #168
michaelt wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right - getting vaccinated protects your family, your community, and your country. What I mean by punching yourself in the face is: Even if you don't have any family and you hate your neighbours, getting vaccinated is still in your own interests, because it stops you dying.

I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but it's unclear what community protection that provides. Vaccinated people can still get infected and spread the virus. They may be contagious for a shorter period on average but the magnitude is still unknown. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 Since the Delta variant is so contagious there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect the…

Not only that, but there seems to be a campaign against the press actually informing people about the limited effectiveness of the vaccine at preventing infection and spread. The stat that actually matters is the relative reduction in risk of vaccinated people catching Covid-19 compared to unvaccinated - it's what dictates things like whether it's possible to get herd immunity via vaccination, and whether events that would turn into superspreading incidents without vaccination still will now. But there's this narrative being pushed that it's wrong and misleading based on nonsense stats like the total percentage of cases which were unvaccinated over a time period that includes a major wave which ended before widespread vaccinations were available, or the absolute risk of someone who's vaccinated catching it (which is worthless as it depends mostly on the prevalence of the virus, and Covid spreads exponentially).

This all seems to be done in order to blame unvaccinated people - and more specifically unvaccinated Republican voters - for the fact that Covid is still spreading and causing deaths and economic damage. (Vaccination rates are also dangerously low amongst black Democrat voters, but of course it'd be politically unacceptable to blame them in the same way). The press keeps pushing the narrative that we could end Covid and all the damage it's doing if not for those evil unvaxxed people, even though this doesn't seem to be borne out by the experience of countries with higher vaccination rates or the scientific evidence.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#284

Post by herbst »

enkid wrote: post #274
herbst wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. And generally the possibility of more severe immune responses after vaxing. (Like with dengue for example) It is obvious these are a problem, and it's obvious we do not talk a out that right now. Saying the vaccine is a perfect solution that will solve all our issues is just dellusional

There is no evidence of that with this vaccine, and with the number of people who have received it we would have collected that evidence by now, so stop spreading hypotheticals.

This is not something you usually notice until years into using it. Even the heart inflammation thing did not show in studies and only months after vaxing, and instead of more severe immune responses on infection this is something that happens immediately and not years later.

This is all just loud thinking at this point. But it's something you regularly find new studies too because it seems to be a concern.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#285

Post by rsfern »

woodpanel wrote: post #194
betterunix2 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COVID vaccination may have become a political position, but vaccination in general is not. Where are all the debates about MMR, hep-B, polio, etc.? We have required vaccinations in our children beginning in infancy for generations, and I am not hearing any governors or representatives saying that we must end the practice.

Each of these illnesses you state is multiple times more serious than covid. And each of their vaccines had the clear benefit of being an actual vaccine.

Covid was the third leading cause of death in the US in 2020. Just because it’s not a uniform risk profile across the population does not make it an unserious disease.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#286

Post by croon »

csomar wrote: post #266
enkid wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't help that major components of the "political class" are being the biggest babies and spreading straight up disinformation. Sure, we shouldn't have to have a mandate, but we are now at the point where it makes no sense not to have one and people can't see that because they are being routinely lied to by people that have the vaccine and by organizations that have the mandate.

> It doesn't help that major components of the "political class" are being the biggest babies and spreading straight up disinformation. Again, this is your shortcoming. It doesn't get fixed by forcing people to have something injected inside of them and have their movement restricted by sanitary passports.

Where does personal responsibility come into the equation? You say it's someone else's fault they haven't educated someone, but that someone has to carry some responsibility on being receptive and to evaluate information, no?

Being persuaded and being informed are hopefully related, but demonstrably different.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#287

Post by tomohawk »

We've had tens of thousands of people pouring across our southern border for months illegally.

Where is the mandate to test / vaccinate these people?

Legal travelers and migrants are required to comply with covid restrictions, but these law breakers are not.

And then, on top of it, they are provided transportation all over the country and dropped off in jurisdictions without any coordination or notification.

How is this mandate supposed to help when the president and his people have been actively undermining the health and safety of this country for months, and have no plan to stop?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#289

Post by enkid »

csomar wrote: post #266
enkid wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't help that major components of the "political class" are being the biggest babies and spreading straight up disinformation. Sure, we shouldn't have to have a mandate, but we are now at the point where it makes no sense not to have one and people can't see that because they are being routinely lied to by people that have the vaccine and by organizations that have the mandate.

> It doesn't help that major components of the "political class" are being the biggest babies and spreading straight up disinformation. Again, this is your shortcoming. It doesn't get fixed by forcing people to have something injected inside of them and have their movement restricted by sanitary passports.

This is not "my" shortcoming. This is a shortcoming of the system that we have to make up for in some way, like having a vaccine mandate.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#290

Post by Broken_Hippo »

totony wrote: post #228
ZetaZero wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic? SCOTUS ruled that mandatory vaccines are constitutional back in 1905. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Note all the "reasonable" and "great danger" in the decision. It's unclear (and to be determined) if covid fits that description

What do you mean, it is unclear? Do overfilled hospitals not create a great danger?
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