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Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

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Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#281

Post by strofcon »

nicce wrote: post #273
strofcon wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Google's entire Code of Conduct used to be "Don't Be Evil". Things change. Money drives all decisions, at all levels above the visceral. Unfortunately, historical precedent for any given business entity provides absolute zero evidence of probable future behavior. :-\

Shouldn't we change our behavior after the bad things happen? Not based on speculation? I have dumped Google completely once they changed drastically.

I agree we should do so! That said, we should discourage behavior that is absolutely guaranteed to be abusive in the future.

We can call it speculation - that doesn't mean it's wrong. Power is the play, and companies will always be leveraged for the benefit of the powerful. This seems pretty indisputable to me.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#282

Post by dogleash »

villgax wrote: post #118
occamrazor wrote: post #104

There is another information leak that I have not seen mentioned in any news report. If an image hash matches the CSAM database, then it is sent to Apple, encrypted and with the “safety voucher”. Apple can decrypt the image only if they receive enough vouchers, and so they claim that they do not have any information about the user in case the number of vouchers is lower than the threshold. But actually they do have i…

Not just that, random folks can send you media through multiple ways & you could get embroiled unnecessarily too, innocuous QR code might automatically download an image if your apps are configured that way.

>innocuous QR code might automatically download an image

Just a few days ago at DEF CON some presenter had been going around with the EICAR test string in a QR code and having fun with all the forced AV hits that can cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIcbAMO6sxo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EICAR_test_file

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#283

Post by GeekyBear »

strofcon wrote: post #263
GeekyBear wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple's new system is scanning personal property that doesn't belong to them and isn't yet in their cloud. Apple's new system only scans photos you attempt to upload to their cloud. Nothing else is scanned. Scanning the files on server, the way Google and Microsoft do it, means that false positive data is lying around where it can be subpoenaed and used to incriminate innocent people. >Innocent man, 23, sues Arizon…

Your whatboutism is profoundly unhelpful here. Yes, other companies are doing bad things, and they should be stopped. Doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that Apple should be allowed to do something even worse.

Other companies aren't "doing bad things" they are handling scanning the contents of their cloud services in a much more user hostile way.

Keeping that data on their server means it can be subpoenaed and misused.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#284

Post by 3pt14159 »

newbamboo wrote: post #268
3pt14159 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. Many parents here have photos of their kids in bathtubs.

Selective enforcement should concern anyone who cares about civil liberties.

I still don't see a citation, and I'm not exactly about to google for one and click around.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#285

Post by belorn »

GeekyBear wrote: post #246
lucasyvas wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This fact is well known and changes nothing. The problem is that the system exists at all. The fine print WILL change - it always does, and that's also a well known fact.

By that logic, Google will definitely begin selling their treasure trove of user data to anyone with a checkbook, because the fine print WILL change.

Google will maximize the method to monetize user data. They have done that in the past, they will continue to do so in the future.

Collect data and monetize it. That is what google is. They don't provide free email or analytic software out of the goodness of their heart.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#286

Post by hnrodey »

GeekyBear wrote: post #210
hnrodey wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Conducting scans on device instead of on server is your idea of infringement of privacy? It's an infringement on my right to freedom of speech. Client-side scanning merely opens the door for my device to censor me from sending any message of my choosing and impacts my ability to freely communicate. What is today child abuse, tomorrow is health information and further descends to political and religious memes, or wha…

> Client-side scanning merely opens the door for my device to censor me from sending any message of my choosing and impacts my ability to freely communicate. Nonsense. Only photos you attempt to upload to Apple's iCloud are scanned. If you don't like it, turn off iCloud photos. >Q: So if iCloud Photos is disabled, the system does not work, which is the public language in the FAQ. I just wanted to ask specifically, wh…

I stand behind my comments for any type of client-side scanning.

There are two upcoming changes from Apple that are often conflated. First, indiscriminate server-side scanning of photos in iCloud against a non-public source database. Second, client-side scanning of messages for child accounts looking for nudity.

Again, client-side scanning is part of the changes that Apple is implementing and I'm projecting on how the terms and conditions of this client-side behavior can and almost certainly will change over the coming years and iOS versions. It's a slow yet accelerating descent to hell.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#287

Post by WA »

tremon wrote: post #254
WA wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because apple has to change terms of service to permit this Apple's ToS change with every iOS release. You have to accept to continue. Do you ever read them?

No, because they are void where I live. (More specifically, in the EU any terms/conditions imposed after sale of goods are non-enforcable).

Of course, you are not forced to accept the new ToS, but you also don’t get the newest iOS Version if you decline.

So sooner or later, you probably need to accept them if you don’t want to be stuck with iOS 14 for the next 7 years.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#288

Post by strofcon »

GeekyBear wrote: post #283
strofcon wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your whatboutism is profoundly unhelpful here. Yes, other companies are doing bad things, and they should be stopped. Doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that Apple should be allowed to do something even worse.

Other companies aren't "doing bad things" they are handling scanning the contents of their cloud services in a much more user hostile way. Keeping that data on their server means it can be subpoenaed and misused.

I mean, we can split hairs over the words to use, but ultimately "immoral and unethical things are being done by big companies that hold all your stuff". The sentiment is the same.

What I'm getting at is that the things Google and Microsoft are doing are entirely irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

Apple is going to compromise your device's privacy in the name of child safety, and will - invariably - eventually cave to pressure to extend that capability well beyond it's originally well-meaning use case.

Stop bringing up what other companies are doing - it is, as I said, entirely irrelevant.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#289

Post by simonh »

luckyandroid wrote: post #158
simonh wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it would be possible to implement content search, profiling and reporting mechanisms for such content, but this seems to be a singularly bad platform for that sort of search. The image profiles are part of the OS so there's no mechanism to deliver image profiles separately for different countries. Also when the threshold number of matching images is reached, the matches are reported to a manual reviewer at…

>Back in the 90s it was virus checking (Do you trust the AV company? What if they were bribed by the content companies?), full device indexing and search (Do you trust the OS vendor? What if they're in league with the government?) These are examples of companies choosing to do something as a selling point of their software as a benefit to the end user, and people worrying that it could aid the government down the lin…

>Apple's content review change is explicitly FOR reporting people to police in a way that can be expanded beyond it's currently set purpose (child porn) later.

I think it would be very hard to expand this beyond it's currently intended purpose, for the reasons I've given. It's terrible for identifying dissidents because it only catches them if they upload to iCloud servers. Dissidents are much more likely to be tech savvy than random child molesters. The reports have to go through Apple, and don't go directly to the cops. Also it's a global image profile list so it's not possible to keep country specific updates secret.

An effctive surveillance mechanism would need to change all of these.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#290

Post by Nicksil »

simonh wrote: post #289
luckyandroid wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Back in the 90s it was virus checking (Do you trust the AV company? What if they were bribed by the content companies?), full device indexing and search (Do you trust the OS vendor? What if they're in league with the government?) These are examples of companies choosing to do something as a selling point of their software as a benefit to the end user, and people worrying that it could aid the government down the lin…

>Apple's content review change is explicitly FOR reporting people to police in a way that can be expanded beyond it's currently set purpose (child porn) later. I think it would be very hard to expand this beyond it's currently intended purpose, for the reasons I've given. It's terrible for identifying dissidents because it only catches them if they upload to iCloud servers. Dissidents are much more likely to be tech…

>It's terrible for identifying dissidents because it only catches them if they upload to iCloud servers.

This is a configuration change. Without knowing the implementation, I'd bet a lunch that, for the time-being, the reason this thing is executed only upon upload to iCloud is because there's some simple business logic buried in there telling it to do so.

>Dissidents are much more likely to be tech savvy than random child molesters.

This is a curious argument. You didn't explain why you think this might be. What is it about a dissident that makes him or her more savvy than some random child molester?

>An effctive surveillance mechanism would need to change all of these.

If true, the obstacles you outlined are trivial to overcome.

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