Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#281

Post by lucian1900 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #149

It's like people don't understand how their wages impact the price of the goods they are producing. The problem is domestic producers can't compete against the actual terrible jobs with poverty wages that foreign producers pay. The trade off is binary. Either you put tariffs on cheaper foreign goods and protect your economy from predatory countries, or you tolerate downward wage pressure. There is no middle ground. I…

You’re describing the effects of imperialism on the working class of the imperialist countries, a point we communists make all the time.

It absolutely is a left/right thing, it’s just that the imperialist countries have largely managed to exclude politics left of centre.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#282

Post by runako » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #242

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

I think the effects of price stickiness (on goods and labor) aren’t being adequately considered in these discussions. Yes, these restaurants could raise their wages to compete with unemployment, and many have. They’ll also need to raise their prices, which they have leeway to do, because everyone is facing the same costs. The problem occurs in a few months when the bonus unemployment runs out. Then there will be mill…

> The problem occurs in a few months when the bonus unemployment runs out. Then there will be millions more people looking for work.

Maybe this won't happen? Unemployment is officially at 6%. Better-capitalized firms have hired a ton of people over the last year. It's possible that marginal businesses like the weaker local restaurants mentioned in this thread will just have to adapt.

Besides, given that their jobs are apparently so crappy that they are losing employees to the likes of McDonalds, certainly they have high turnover. If a labor glut happens, they can just lower wages and deal with the resulting turnover, which they already know how to handle.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#283

Post by ericbarrett » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

simfree wrote: post #269

ericbarrett wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about franchise fees? Independent fast food restaurants basically don’t exist in the U.S. anymore. An individual McDonalds may be scraping the boundary of profitability, but corporate had a net income of $1.5B last quarter[0], or about $7,500 per employee per quarter [1]. That’s net income, not revenue. [0] https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/content/dam/gwscorp/assets/i... [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/cha…

Dicks, Burgerville (mostly unionized), Burgermaster, In N Out and other regional chains exist, along with a plethora of single location independent fast food restaurants.

All those regional chains you mentioned pay significantly better than McDonalds, YUM, etc. as well.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#284

Post by djfobbz » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

macinjosh wrote: post #65

If this is happening it is truly a good thing. I have always felt that the best way to have improvements for entry-level labor is if they just refused to take the shitty jobs and the market turned on employers. What employers refer to as shortages aren't really that at all. The truth is that the labor market is just not in their favor as it typically is. I do not think it is ideal that the alternative option being ut…

I'm not too sure about that one! I've seen some entry level laborers getting paid $10/hr to sleep in their car. I don't think "Sleeping in your car" is a valid job description for any business.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#285

Post by djfobbz » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #231

I see a logical fallacy because I lived in some conditions that are very relevant. Paying everyone a living wage (last sentence) is impossible; not because 'living wage' is relative - from a city to another, from a country to another, from a person to another (can you live without an iPhone? why not?) - but because increasing wages to that level, assuming you can determine one, will just increase the prices to fit. M…

agreed!

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#286

Post by simfree » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

j1elo wrote: post #279

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

> Vehicle insurance on an old vehicle: $300/mo Wow. In Spain you would pay between €150 to 200 per year of insurance for the typical old cheap car. 400/year for a nice, semi luxury one. I knew some things were expensive in the States, but this particular one surprised me a lot.

Depending on the car and where you live insurance can be lower or higher. Outside of collector/classic car insurance policies (eg: this is not a daily driver car and you agree not to exceed a low number of miles yearly) or parked insurance (a few hundred miles a year), there is not $200 to $300 a year car insurance in the USA.

Tribal reservations don't require license plates or insurance usually, and you cab choose to self insure if you have sufficient cash set aside.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#287

Post by Clubber » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #67

Clubber wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really understanding your point.

The laws in the US only require companies to provide health insurance and other benefits to full-time workers, usually defined as something over 30/hours a week. If a company hires a bunch of people to work 20-25 hours, they don't have to pay benefits. The solution, obviously, is to change the law so that any employee, regardless of hours, must get benefits. The other solution, in the US, is to get rid of the antiqua…

I didn't mention anything about cutting salary or benefits. If employers are having a hard time finding people, they'll need to step up.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#288

Post by djbebs » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #274

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> But they will, they will go down the street But... why? To save a couple bucks on a burger? This is a serious question. Is this really how consumer behavior works in the restaurant industry? Restaurant food isn't actually a commodity. A burger from one place can be quite different from a burger at another. Even at the low end -- I much prefer McD's to the other fast food joints. Atmospheres can be very different as…

Price changes do work...

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#289

Post by runako » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #21

Occasionally, Twitter provides some nice insights in digestible forms (of course, nuance gets stripped). I saw a post recently that said something like "We watch Star Trek and marvel at their post-scarcity world. We are living in a post-scarcity world now, but all the benefits are being funneled by wage slaves up to the 0.1%." Paraphrased. I was talking with a friend who mentioned that a local pizza place is offering…

> If they're still having trouble filling that, is it because making $37k a year in Texas isn't good enough for a no-education, no-experience job?

It's most likely because somebody in the area is paying more and/or offering a better job.

Is it really $37k, or is it an $18/hr job? That is, are they offering $18/hr for 40 guaranteed hours a week for 52 weeks, or is it just a few hours a day during the dinner rush (unless they send me home early because of a light evening)? Can they tell me today what hours I will be working 2 weeks from now, or do they usually disclose the schedule a day or two in advance? Are there any benefits? In other words, is it a typical restaurant job?

I personally would prefer (say) $16/hr with a guaranteed 40 hours and predictable schedule to a typical restaurant job. Now that big employers like Target, Amazon, etc. are in the $16 range, they may offer jobs that pay a lower hourly rate but are more compelling overall. (The Amazon warehouse in Fort Worth is paying nearly $18 and they have nonzero benefits and are unlikely to run out of hours.)

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#290

Post by bena » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #164

gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 * 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

I have a problem with your basic starting point.

You say $58/day for 30 days. That's working the whole month with no days off. That's not anybody's life that I know.

It's better to estimate 168 hours per month worked. That's 4 full-time work weeks of 5 days a week plus an extra day. With 12 months in the year, you're still effectively short a few days, but it's close enough.

So $7.25 * 168 is $1218

Let's ignore every other expense. Let's say you walk everywhere, use the library for internet, whatever.

Average rent is roughly that.

You are fucked from the start to just put a roof over your head. That's also assuming that job is 40 hours a week. Giving 8 hours work, 8 hours sleep, you have 72 hours left over. Some of that time will be dedicated to commuting, hygiene, eating, etc. You might be able to swing a second full time job, but that's just your life from then on.

Also 2 tanks per week, that's insane. Even when I was driving 50-ish miles each way, I was getting gas about twice every three weeks. With a daily 100 mile commute, I'd say my fuel costs were in the neighborhood of $100 per month.

Your insurance is also way out of whack. Old cars have cheaper insurance. I have a 2017 model and pay $700-ish every 6 months. And it wasn't much worse when it was new.