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EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

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Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#281

Post by bagacrap »

6510 wrote: post #259

There was a time when calculators were not allowed. The solution was that since people can always have access to calculators they should be allowed to use them. I think that should work, if a student can use a computer to answer a question he can always use a computer to answer that question. It should be encouraged to do so, the school should make an effort providing- and keeping the answers online and available for…

this clearly doesn't work because most test questions for students are trivially Google-able. So then tests as they currently exist would not be able to differentiate someone who has studied and internalized the material from someone who Googles quickly. Tests would have to be re-written to require a lot more creativity, which is not only hard to do as a test writer, it's harder to grade and ultimately for students, requires even more effort (compared to rote memorization of facts or rules). So I don't think most students or instructors love this idea.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#282

Post by dang »

amcoastal wrote: post #66
mkl wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copy-pasting from my other comment: > I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option. The alternatives have greater deficiencies: human invigilators using Zoom etc. don't scale (institution experience); oral exams don't scale (my experience moderating such assessments); no invigilation leads to cheating (by few students but enough to be a real problem, especially for professional qualifications…

As both a TA and a student during the virus, we did better and so can you. Stop trying to shoehorn your in person lesson plans and exams into virtual and design new material and tests. Dont be a shitty teacher just because you're too lazy to change your now dated ways.

Please make your substantive points without swipes. Crossing into name-calling and personal attack is not cool.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#283

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

reaperducer wrote: post #276
Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>looking around in the room or blinking too much >And I tend to close my eyes a lot because it helps me visualize the problem Nvidia has added eye-correction feature to it's Maxine platform(SDK with set of ML features for video conferencing) it can correct our eyes in real-time to show that we're looking at the camera even when we didn't. When I first saw it's demo the first thing which came to my mind was these proc…

It's a matter of time before all major video conferencing tools add these features or 3rd party plugins/hacks which enable it. Apple demonstrated this in Facetime about a year ago, but I don't know what happened to it. I don't use Facetime, so I can't confirm it was ever implemented. But clearly it's on big tech's radar.

I see, thanks for sharing. I don't do any video calls either (or any real-time comm) I suspected that this feature might be already in some video conferencing software considering there seems to be a need gap for eye-correction features.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#284

Post by whimsicalism »

driverdan wrote: post #252
hyperpape wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm conflicted about this. I agree with you that I think working for this company and not having an ethical objection is a red flag. But the interview environment is fraught. Is it really obvious that no candidate would think "this question is a trap"? There's a lot of interview advice that says your answer to this question can only ever hurt you, so be as bland as possible. Some employers want compliant employees wh…

> There's a lot of interview advice that says your answer to this question can only ever hurt you, so be as bland as possible. Seems like terrible advice to me. If someone gives me bland answers I'll assume they're a bland person. > Some employers want compliant employees who don't rock the boat. Good for them, I do. I want people who are willing to stand up for what is right and say "no".

> If someone gives me bland answers I'll assume they're a bland person.

The issue is that plenty of interviewers are bland.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#285

Post by robertlagrant »

Rochus wrote: post #45
toyg wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orwell is the modern Machiavelli. In about 100 years, people will be wondering if 1984 was satire/criticism or an actual blueprint for effective government in the digital age, in the same way the real aim of Il Principe has been endlessly debated for centuries.

In contrast, Orwell's fundamental rejection of the totalitarian surveillance society is well known and documented. Even in 100 years, those who are interested can read it all.

Not if it gets Fahrenheit 451'd :-)

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#286

Post by dang »

jcelerier wrote: post #24
northrup wrote: post #17

It’s as if nobody has ever read George Orwell’s 1984: “It was terribly dangerous to let your thoughts wander when you were in any public place or within range of a telescreen. The smallest thing could give you away. A nervous tic, an unconscious look of anxiety, a habit of muttering to yourself – anything that carried with it the suggestion of abnormality, of having something to hide. In any case, to wear an improper…

> It’s as if nobody has ever read George Orwell’s 1984 no, they read it and think "how can we do even better"

Please don't post this sort of cheap flamebait crack here. It makes discussions poorer.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#287

Post by smiths1999 »

soperj wrote: post #220
liminalsunset wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, at the school this happened at, UBC, Proctorio is now effectively banned, along with other similar "algorithmic" proctoring tools, and exams are no longer allowed to use it with some exceptions. They've moved to Lockdown Browser without the recording, and to Zoom proctoring. In my opinion, neither are particularly effective measures against cheating, and I'm sure they are trivially bypassable. Th…

This is silly. Make the exams open book and then the only thing you really need to worry about is the correct student taking the exam. If you're testing based on memorization of things in this day in age, then the course is useless.

I teach at the university level and this is what I have done with my exams. Everything is open book and in my experience there is no difference in the average exam score between open book online and closed (or open) book in person. It is also way easier for me to not have to worry about who is cheating and where everyone is looking (I also don't like the idea of forcing students to turn on their webcams).

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#288

Post by mynameisvlad »

bena wrote: post #238
yowlingcat wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure whether I can take this statement at its word. If that's the response when questioned about working at a company whose entire purpose is purportedly ethical, I would strongly reconsider your position. There are many corporate cultures where this kind of apathy and whatabout-ism would be considered a red flag. That would certainly be the case for any process I've run.

Let me put it this way, asking why you left an employer is fine. Expecting a certain answer for a subjective situation and rejecting an applicant because they didn't give you exactly that answer is not exactly a healthy behavior. I'm here for a job, not to play weird mind games.

Bingo. If you discard my resume because I refuse to badmouth a previous employer in an interview then that's just a sign that I'd probably rather not work for you.

And as other people mentioned, especially in an interview where you're being intensely judged and have to give second thought to everything you say, I'm not about to give anything other than a neutral answer that's supposed to appease most people.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#289

Post by jessaustin »

Smaug123 wrote: post #109
everyone wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reckon the majority of english speakers who read 'Proctorio' will immediately think anus.

Google Trends: "proctor" is dramatically more common than "proctologist". I'd go so far as to say you're objectively wrong. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=proctor,pr...

Isn't that a measure of how often words are searched? Everyone knows what a proctologist is, and no one wants to learn any more about them than they absolutely have to learn. A comedic trope is for a sadistic doctor to brutally thrust his hand into a nitrile glove and ask if some poor sap is ready for his exam. On the other hand, those with college degrees (a minority of the population) have heard the word "proctor" on eight different occasions in their entire lives.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#290

Post by MikeTheGreat »

ModernMech wrote: post #219
nradov wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure projects are generally better than exams. But cheating on projects and papers is also rampant. Students just pay someone else to do the work.

Here's my solution to this: 1) Version control all assignments. I force them to make periodic commits throughout the week. If they want to copy a project wholesale, they have to do so in a way that takes a lot of time and effort. 2) Comparing bytecode. If they change the names of variables, comments, spacing, etc. these superficial differences will be lost in compilation. 3) Oral explanations. Now that everyone has g…

These are awesome tips - thanks for sharing!

Question: if (when) a student hands in an assignment without the periodic commits, what happens? How do you measure & set expectations for sufficient frequency of commits? (i.e., 1 single commit is too few, I assume that once a day is enough, but where's the threshold?)

Thanks again for sharing - I'll be thinking about these for my own classes!

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