Early-Retirement Update • Hacker News Board

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#281

Post by ghaff » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

samvher wrote: post #66

afterwalk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What interests me most about the FI community on reddit is how they split into two very different subgroups(leanfire and fatfire). Part of it is a difference in frugality, but part of it is is a fundamental difference in modeling risk.

Do you mean that fatfire folks calculate a greater margin to handle risk or the other way around?

Well, fatfire just has a larger bucket. If you've calculated a budget down to the penny (or even have a budget outside of in a generalized way), it's a lot harder to absorb unmodeled risks.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#282

Post by thesuitonym » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

pinkybanana wrote: post #84

lutorm wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except "retirement" simply means "not having to work to survive". It doesn't mean doing nothing, it means having the freedom to choose to do things that are meaningful to you.

In common language it doesn't. Many people who choose to work don't need the job to survive. I know ridiculously wealthy people who just keep working the usual way. No one says those people are retired. While retirement is cool, I think life goes better without thinking too much about it. Try to work at a job that doesn't suck ass, try to have hobbies and free time, focus on family etc, invest your savings, don't buy…

>Try to work at a job that doesn't suck ass

I've been trying to do that since I entered the workforce. I still haven't found it.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#283

Post by kelnos » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

pcglue wrote: post #184

2.8M nut, about 50/50 in regular/retirement accounts. I'm mid 40's, married with two pre-teen kids, annual expenses of $80K, live in HCOL area (Southern California). Would you FIRE in this situation? Would you take a year long hiatus? As much as I would like to FIRE, I can't/won't, even though the "numbers" say I probably could. But seriously considering a months to year long career break/sabbatical/hiatus, because I…

As others have pointed out, try to get a financial advisor who can look at your situation and give you some objective advice.

But also understand that you're probably not going to make the best decisions about this from the perspective of extreme burnout.

First step might be to talk to your boss about your workload and see if there are some changes that can be made to make you happy again. If that doesn't pan out, maybe think about finding a new job. Even if you choose not to, just going through the process of seeing what's out there will give you some valuable perspective.

I don't have much idea as to how difficult it'd be to find another job in your 40s/50s if you take an extended break from work for a while, but my intuition is that it'd be harder than simply switching jobs now. An alternative might be to find a new job now, but negotiate a start date that is a month or two out from your planned last day at your current job. This won't work at some employers, but many will be fine with it.

On the other hand, consider that $2.8M at $80k/yr is 35 years of expenses. Your expenses will almost certainly grow over time, but even if they triple, that's still over 10 years of runway. If you wanted to take a year off, but then had trouble finding a job right away, you'd have no problem (financially) taking 6 months (or 12 or more) finding your next job. Hell, you could train for an entirely new field and work your way up from an entry level position to something mid-range in that time.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#284

Post by 11thEarlOfMar » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

I suppose one reason people focus on early retirement is that their work life is unfulfilling. It may follow that a person in an unfulfilling job who has the agency to get themselves into a fulfilling job would do so. Once retired, that agency would lead to activities that kept them occupied, feeling valued and meaningful.

Someone who is in an unfulfilling job and cannot make the move to fulfillment working is likely also not going to find retirement fulfilling. I'd venture that our hero actually isn't completely clear on what makes him tick.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#285

Post by esturk » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

Despite some in this thread decrying the author, judging him on his life choices, etc. I feel the main culprit in this case is still the healthcare issue.

The problem in the US is that proper healthcare is tied to a job. If the author had proper healthcare (say offered by the Government), he may still be in retirement.

For our European counterparts, ask yourself this. Would 900k euro in savings be enough for retirement in Europe?

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#286

Post by ghaff » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

pcglue wrote: post #242

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because I'm extremely extremely burnt out How often do you take real vacations? Your scenario comes up a lot in FIRE forums: People lead unsustainably stressful work lives and think the only antidote is to quit. Then they decide they're not ready to quit, so they continue working the unsustainably demanding job. The real solution is to work on refactoring your career. You need to teach yourself how to work sustaina…

Pre-pandemic, I'd take 3-4 weeks a year. I've only taken a 2 weeks off this past year, mainly because there's no where to go, so I've taken the 2 weeks just for mental health. Everything you say makes sense and I am considering all of it, especially taking a lower paying, lower stress job.

This is the first time in my rather long career when I haven't taken effectively every day I was owed. Couldn't go anywhere--or at least didn't feel comfortable doing so--and odd days here and there often ended as at least partial work days.

In a prior life, I took a few month-long trips to Nepal. No one ever complained although a few were a bit surprised I could do so.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#287

Post by ericmay » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #229

ericmay wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to say I read this, and thanks. Great points you’ve brought up here. I guess I’d say I would need to specify my definition of “work” a bit more. I wouldn’t view work strictly as employment, but as productive tasks with some means to an end, but that could also include hobbies like cooking, or wood working, for example. I would definitely challenge from a general standpoint any life where you’re not doing…

Sure, retirement and those other kinds of work you mention aren't incompatible. I think when we talk about retirement and not "working", we're specifically talking about not having a job that pays money. Though many people still consider themselves retired while holding a part-time job or working freelance some number of hours. This is why in part I think the distinction between "FI" and "RE" is pretty small. I absol…

Another great post. Thanks a lot.

I definitely would say “doing nothing” - however we would define that isn’t something I’d put a moral judgement on. I think maybe the colloquial “relax on the beach” isn’t really possible long term. Maybe a year at most. I think most people historically at least just say on the couch. Contrast with maybe the idea (reality is questionable) of the old man in the Italian country side or woman in Okinawa tending to their gardens and walking to the market each day. At least maybe there are some items to discuss further when thinking about what retirement really means.

Really enjoying your posts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#288

Post by ghaff » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #187

pcglue wrote: post #184

2.8M nut, about 50/50 in regular/retirement accounts. I'm mid 40's, married with two pre-teen kids, annual expenses of $80K, live in HCOL area (Southern California). Would you FIRE in this situation? Would you take a year long hiatus? As much as I would like to FIRE, I can't/won't, even though the "numbers" say I probably could. But seriously considering a months to year long career break/sabbatical/hiatus, because I…

Another approach to FIRE that I think is actually more fulfilling is to gradually reduce working hours until "retired". For example, explore a position that lets you work 4 days a week and take Mondays or Fridays off. Later, switch to part time or contracting 6 months on 6 months off. I don't personally think gap years will be very fulfilling unless it's something like a whole family 1 year vacation where you all go…

That's assuming your preference is to have shorter/easier weeks as opposed to taking chunks of time off--which is my preference.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#289

Post by allenu » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

CryingSofa wrote: post #267

thesuitonym wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Things worked out for you, but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could set yourself to solving? And why should they? I'm no fan of trust fund babies who coast by on life, but really, why does anyone have to justify their lives by doing something to improve the world? What are you and I accomplishing right now? Maybe it's just the severe burnout talking, but I for one wo…

The definition of 'retirement' is a common debate in the FIRE space. Often (not always!) it boils down to fights over definitions. Would you call daily volunteering at a soup kitchen (or church, or whatever) 'retired'? By the way, "making the world better" doesn't need to be large or expensive, at least in my opinion: If I talk to the lone, probably widowed neighbour on my way home, I count that as "making the world…

That's a good point about the scale of the "making the world better". It doesn't have to be huge.

I think at the end of the day, it's really about finding meaning in your own existence, and such a large part of that for a lot of us is feeling like we are giving back to society or helping our fellow humans somehow. I think this is where I can see the author's goal of just writing being hollow. He writes about his fears that maybe his writing won't ever be discovered. It makes me wonder if he's writing because he enjoys the craft or he wants the status of being known as a writer.

If he really enjoyed the craft, maybe he would've enjoyed writing more. The status thing would be nice, but maybe he would enjoy having other people read his stories and connecting with them. That could've been something to keep him going and give him some short-term goals, direction, and connection with other people.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#290

Post by hintymad » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

guidoism wrote: post #157

hintymad wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. I'd also add that frugality does not work very well when you have kids. You would want to buy time if you don't want to spend all your time with kids. That means baby sitters, nannies, coaches, and classes for extracurricular activities. Besides, not every parent is good at coaching or tutoring their kids. Given the education quality of the US, you'd have to pay for additional education unless you're the l…

Not going to argue about having to spend money to get some time away from the kids. But education? If you retire then you have the time to unschool your children and while your family and friends will think you are crazy your children will get a much better education than anything that involves money.

> unschool your children

Via homeschool groups or via your own? I don't know much about homeschool group, so I'll comment only educating kids alone: parents tend to underestimate the skills required for quality education. You need empathy to understand that your kids may not get some seemingly simple concepts. You need skills to explain to kids complex concepts in simple terms -- and this is not about merely applying Feynman's technique, but about knowing what language is more accessible to kids. You need to know a subject well to teach your kids effectively. The list can go on. In a word, education is a profession, and it takes years of experience to become a quality educator. Why do parents think that they can magically give "a much better education than anything that involves money"?

By the way, I recognize that there are always exceptions, especially that smart and driven kids probably need just parents' guidance and advice instead of full-fledged "education". I mainly have ordinary kids in mind, though, as they are the majority to whom education makes a huge difference. Case in point, I didn't get physics, especially free-body diagram and optics when I started learning physics in junior high. It was a retired teacher who removed my conceptual blocks by giving me very targeted exercises. I got stuck again in high school when studying electromagnetism, and it was another teacher who opened my eyes by prescribing inspiring problems like how to accelerate a static electron without a push. I was also lucky to get a math teacher who somehow could find incredibly challenging yet accessible problems that kept me in the discomfort zone. I have similar stories for writing class, for history class, and for chemistry class. Oh yeah, chemistry. A teacher in my senior year was so passionate about chemistry that I didn't realize that he taught us how to reason about organic synthesis at college level, to the point that we could solve some of the IChO problems. And the truth is that my parents could never do what those teachers did. I'm not sure how many kids were lucky enough to have responsible and capable teachers around. And if they don't, finding tutors is not a bad choice.